What brand of cable are you using for guitar to Axe?

funny_polymath said:
Jesus Christ! Why is the only thing Capacitence when Skin effect and several other phenomena are well documented? This insistence that capciitence is the ONLY thing that can affect a low-level signal comprised of many frequiencies is sounding more and more like a religion. And WHO said it 'increases bass response'? Maybe some do, I don't know. I said that certain cables with multi-conductor design (with each insulated by a dialectric) produce a more coherent signal. Does that mean it makes the signal 'more coherent'? No, it means that single conductors, because of the nature of frequency (or,wavelength, if you prefer) DISTORT the signal, make it less coherent. So, a tighter, more refined low end, more clarity in transients result from a signal that is 'less blurred'. And, for the umpteenth time: Some of us old-time audio engineers did multiple double blind studies (in various states of sobriety and inebriation from dead sober to... not so sober :) with ONE HUNDRED PERCENT positive results. Yes, we wore blindfolds. Yes, we used the same channel on the board, the same mic the same length of cable, the same speakers. no EQ, no compression etc. etc. Yes, we tried to fake each other out by pretending to switch cables, sometimes going so far as to have the same cable used 5 times in a row. And neiither I nor my chief engineer was fooled ONCE. That was in 1985. I do not know if my ears are as good now, but I will try to do some recordings to see if I can capture the difference (Iam talking mic cables here, by the way, since all of my double blinds were done with them). We needed less EQ with those cables, and the difference was quite audible, even monitored through a crappy Ramsa mixer, crappy TOA monitors, and a very nice Hafler amp. I do wish you would allow SOME possibilitiy that there are things you may not know. It's disheartening to hear such certainty: "Absolute certainty is the hallmark of the closed mind". And, yes, I'm certain about that :lol
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On second thought: why do recordings? The views expressed are obviously so entrenched that I'm sure someone would accuse me of faking it, something I am morally incapable of doing.

So: let's just agree to disagree. You can think I'm a fool for falling for the hype, you can invalidate my experience. I will not invalidate your experiences: I get that you don't hear a difference. I accept that. But I will think you are foolish to be so cocksure about things, and so closed-minded.

Let's give this a rest! Stick a fork in it! It's F&%#ing done!
 
Lighten up Poly! :) It's nothing personal and certainly doesnt merit getting so upset over something so subjective . I was just displaying an article I came across. I like to research things. I am not an EE nor do I profess to have golden ears. In fact I admit to quite the opposite as I am older and to be honest am quite GLAD that I don't. I actually find all the clip and hearing tests across the internet quite amusing and humorous to be honest. I have seen so many post about what they are or are not hearing only to have the person who posted the reference tell them they were in reverse of what they said and then you get all the back peddling comments real quick.

It has been my experience (real world) that people hear what they want to hear. The science backs that up. I don't at all doubt your real world blind tests that concludde differenty than my own. However, when it comes down to the nitty gritty I will most always choose science over blind "human" tests. That is just my humble opinion based on my limited experience and knowledge.

I also find a lot of humor in the fact that all these "golden ear" types hear these minute differences and argue about the validity non-stop then toss that signal into a mix where drastic differences could not be detected by the human ear. Again, I just don't buy into all the hype the Monster, Mogami. and other companies put out. And I actully use Mogami bulk cabe to make my cables as I like to stay consistent and I like thier build quality. If you can hear a difference between the highly expensive cables then the more power to you and those companies that recieve your money. It's all good. I actually feel quite fortunate to be one of those "regular" folks that doesn't. My wallet feels better too! :)

I apologize if posting an article I found interesting and topical to the thread upsets you on a personal level. Was never my intention. Just enjoying the researching and learning about the guitar gear world as I travel my path of newbieness...
 
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cobbler said:
Lighten up Poly! :) It's nothing personal and certainly doesnt merit getting so upset over something so subjective . I was just displaying an article I came across. I like to research things. I am not an EE nor do I profess to have golden ears. In fact I admit to quite the opposite as I am older and to be honest am quite GLAD that I don't. I actually find all the clip and hearing tests across the internet quite amusing and humorous to be honest. I have seen so many post about what they are or are not hearing only to have the person who posted the reference tell them they were in reverse of what they said and then you get all the back peddling comments real quick.

It has been my experience (real world) that people hear what they want to hear. The science backs that up. I don't at all doubt your real world blind tests that concludde differenty than my own. However, when it comes down to the nitty gritty I will most always choose science over blind "human" tests. That is just my humble opinion based on my limited experience and knowledge.

I also find a lot of humor in the fact that all these "golden ear" types hear these minute differences and argue about the validity non-stop then toss that signal into a mix where drastic differences could not be detected by the human ear. Again, I just don't buy into all the hype the Monster, Mogami. and other companies put out. And I actully use Mogami bulk cabe to make my cables as I like to stay consistent and I like thier build quality. If you can hear a difference between the highly expensive cables then the more power to you and those companies that recieve your money. It's all good. I actually feel quite fortunate to be one of those "regular" folks that doesn't. My wallet feels better too! :)

I apologize if posting an article I found interesting and topical to the thread upsets you on a personal level. Was never my intention. Just enjoying the researching and learning about the guitar gear world as I travel my path of newbieness...
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No offense taken. It is the continual insistence that capacitence and cable length can be the ONLY POSSIBLE variables that sticks in my craw. The world's full of mysteries (as well as well-documented phenomena that tend to contradict said ASSUMPTION).

I am well aware of the power of the mind (the famous wine-tasting tests of 'experts' comes to mind). But because of that, I put a lot of faith in double-blind listening tests. More, actually than any one measurement, because measurements may or may not be measuring the phenomena that I'm hearing. Blanket black/white statements tend not to conform to reality in my experience.

I guess I'm also testy on the subject because I am proud of my ears and I was the victim of a joke of Cliff's (he said somethiing was an amp that was the Axe and t'other way 'round). it was implied that I had no ears, and that I'd insisted that the Axe was an amp and vice-versa. Actually, all I'd said was: if that sound is the Axe, it ain't as good as the other one, unlike may other clips I've heard where I liked the Axe clip better[/I.] I had not prattled on about 'bloom' or 'organic' sound or anything like that, though some intimated (by adding non-sequitor quotes from others) that I had. On the contrary: I was actually consistent in liking the Axe clip more, as I had every comparitive clip I'd heard before, I'd just labelled them in reverse, because I'd been told they were the reverse. And, indeed, I much PREFER the my Axe sound to the sound of my Twin, even when emulating my twin as closely as I can.

Back in the 80's, I well remember rejecting preamps from Amek, I think it was, because of their 'transformer' sound. The salesmen replied that this was a transformerless design. A look at the product spec sheet backed him up. I refused to believe it, so we called Amek (or whomever it was: senior moment here): turned out that the version I was listening to was a pre-production unit that indeed did have a transformer stage. I did a LOT of ear training back in the 80's. Physiologically, there's no way my hearing is as good now as it was then, but just as the brain, and the brain's prejudices and preconceptions can 'fool the ear', the inverse is true: ear training is, of course, a mental discipline. It involves being able to concentrate, and being trained in what certain phenomena sound like. It was worth it as it has helped my acovations as an engineer and a musician and composer.

As to the article, I have not read it, but I will. I was responding, once more, to the basic 'frame' (that capcitence is the only possible thing, other than cable length, that can affect sound), and also to the insinuation (or so it seemed) that I or anyhone else had suggested that a cable magically adds yummy goodness to a sound. I've certainly never thought that. Rather, I think certain arrays of conductors can 'un-blur' a signal. ED: the last sentence was unclear. They cannot 'un-blur' a signal, or 'fix' anything at all - but rather some cables do blur a signal, and in comparison, others seem to not blur it, or blur it less. This is probably in the domain of phase coherence more than frequency response...

Peace.
 
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funny_polymath said:
No offense taken. It is the continual insistence that capacitence and cable length can be the ONLY POSSIBLE variables that sticks in my craw. The world's full of mysteries (as well as well-documented phenomena that tend to contradict said ASSUMPTION).
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The world of physics of low frequency electricity transmission over relatively short distances is completely devoid of mysteries at this point. But I already said more than I should have. Believe what you want to believe. It's not my money you're spending.
 
So to summarise.
The length and gauge of your cable, has certain electrical qualities.
A more expensive cable of the same length and gauge may or may not have discernible differences, and may or may not be snake oil.
Science may or may not have all the answers.

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
Hamlet, scene v

And finally if your cable is functional mechanically regardless of length and gauge it is what you do with it that counts :)

Play on...

The above is not meant to be scientific, it is meant in good humour lest we take ourselves too seriously...
 
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Gauge too has no effect at the lengths of a typical guitar cable for one simple reason. One end of your cable is connected to a significant length of very thin copper wire, thinner than human hair. Canare GS6 has an 18AWG core. This means the resistance of 20 feet of it is 0.13 ohms. For the reference, DiMarzio Super Distortion has resistance of 13.68KOhms. Resistance of the cable (which is defined by its gauge and the choice of conductive material) is negligible.
 
acosmichippo said:
Sorry, I just have to interject here. It is not "closed-minded" to be skeptical of anecdotal evidence.
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It is closed mind to INSIST that capacitence and cable length are the ONLY possible variables when empirical evidence of many other phenomena from skin effect to eddy currents exists.
 
stratamania said:
So to summarise.
The length and gauge of your cable, has certain electrical qualities.
A more expensive cable of the same length and gauge may or may not have discernible differences, and may or may not be snake oil.
Science may or may not have all the answers.

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
Hamlet, scene v

And finally if your cable is functional mechanically regardless of length and gauge it is what you do with it that counts :)

Play on...

The above is not meant to be scientific, it is meant in good humour lest we take ourselves too seriously...
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Two cables of the same length, same construction and different gauge will not have any difference unless one cable is such small gauge that it cannot carry the current (unlikely with a guitar cable :)

Two cables of the same length where one has a single conductor for each 'wire' (two or three depending on balanced/unbalanced) and the other is made up of several differently sized conductors that are insulated from each other CAN produce an audible difference in sound.
 
plexi59 said:
The world of physics of low frequency electricity transmission over relatively short distances is completely devoid of mysteries at this point. But I already said more than I should have. Believe what you want to believe. It's not my money you're spending.
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NOTHING is without mystery, my friend. But we don't need the mystery - we can look to other observed and measured phenomena that you refuse to acknowledge as possibly having any effect at all.

But as to 'mystery', I bet the first time someone told you about THIS you said it was pure bullcrap too, right? I mean, that makes no friggin' sense!

It is amazing how SURE people are of things, even when solid evidence to the contrary exists. But I've already said more than I should. Believe what you want to believe. it's not my signal you're sending through those cables.
 
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There are differences in every cable some small some great. The Sommer Grundy Cop Beast is the best sounding cable for what I want hands down. Amazingly clear but still full. And a lot of people agree. The name is insane but ignore it, I think it was a joke that somehow made it to market. Lol. http://www.lavacable.com/index.php?id=67
 
The debate about cables seems to inspire the kind of heated discussion normally reserved for abortion and gay mariage. Seriously? :roll
 
funny_polymath said:
It is amazing how SURE people are of things, even when solid evidence to the contrary exists.
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So far you've failed to present any. You know why? Because there isn't any evidence. It's placebo effect. There can't be any difference between a low capacitance coaxial cable with one or multiple conductors. If there was, Mogami, Canare and Belden would be making multi-conductor cables too. But they do employ engineers who understand physics, and they sell to engineers. Engineers don't tolerate horseshit well.
 
xrist04 said:
The judges are deciding whether to award this thread the coveted Double Toaster award.
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The judges are back, and it's offical.

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Skin effect - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
plexi59 said:
So far you've failed to present any. You know why? Because there isn't any evidence. It's placebo effect. There can't be any difference between a low capacitance coaxial cable with one or multiple conductors. If there was, Mogami, Canare and Belden would be making multi-conductor cables too. But they do employ engineers who understand physics, and they sell to engineers. Engineers don't tolerate horseshit well.
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Yeah. Only double-blind experience of my own. i know, I lie for the fun of it. Only double-blind studies on Homeopathy. yeah, I know: they lie too.

In fact, I daresay that anyone who ever disagrees with you on any subject is a fool and/or liar.

Skin Effect

More

Hmm, all the same length, but different resistance... <- about speaker cables, not mic or instrument cables, but still every interesting.
 
plexi59 said:
So far you've failed to present any. You know why? Because there isn't any evidence. It's placebo effect. There can't be any difference between a low capacitance coaxial cable with one or multiple conductors. If there was, Mogami, Canare and Belden would be making multi-conductor cables too. But they do employ engineers who understand physics, and they sell to engineers. Engineers don't tolerate horseshit well.
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Horseshit?

How civil of you!

How about we just agree to disagree.

You get to be 'right'. And so do I.

No need to resort to this kind of nastiness.
 
I think, if you plug in the numbers to the skin effect equation, you can see that at the range of frequencies encountered in audio equipment, it's influence would be minimal. Of course, if the frequency approaches 500 mhz and up, things change. so, while it is real, it just isn't likely to matter very much in our application.
 
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