What are your opinions on running a sim cab into a real cab?

Rocketsurgeongeneral

Rocketsurgeongeneral

Inspired
I'm using the Axe Fx II XL+ preset #283 Uber Chugga and I have my Axe Fx running into a seymour duncan powerstage 700 and into an EVH 5150 2x10 cab. Should I keep the cab blocks activated or bypassed? Why or why not?
 
it is not intended to run a cab sim into a real cab. conceptually, this makes sense.

in my experience, it's never sounded good. some prefer it. try it. see what you like. but again, it's not intended to run cab sim into a real cab.
 
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It depends.

When I ran my Axe FX into a Marshall 8008 poweramp into two Marshall 4x12 cabs this sounded ghastly, and I had to create special presets without cabsims. When I got a Matrix poweramp these presets however sounded absolutely horrible and I had to use presets with cabsim again. Which is how I currently still run my presets when using cabs.
 
The common approach is to disable Cab sims when you're running into a regular guitar speaker cab.

If that doesn't sound good at normal volume levels, something in the rig is set up wrong. Perhaps Power Amp Modeling is turned OFF by accident. You should not have to fix the issue by adding a cab sim.

However, some guitar speakers and some amps don't sound that great at very low volume levels. Instead of adjusting the gain and tone controls, it you can try adding a cab sim, because this adds low and top end. Turn off the cab sim as soon as you turn up the level, because the sound will get all mushy.
 
I'm a big proponent of turning cabinet sims OFF when using a real cab. Otherwise you're filtering the sound twice. If you guitar tone doesn't sound good with your cab, put an EQ block at the end of your preset before it goes out to the cab. This way you can sculpt your tone to exactly what you want.

I think it's worth mentioning that live cabs are very different than running an IR through an FRFR speaker. Using an IR+FRFR has a very focused and concise tone, whereas a live cabinet has a wider "gradient" of tones. Microphones are placed on different parts of guitar speakers because the tone color varies depending where you are listening.
 
If it sounds good to you then it sounds good. In the end that's all that really matters.

That said, it's not the first thing I would do personally because it goes against the philosophy of IRs.
 
It’s one of those things that I feel like can sound neat when you’re by yourself, but get into a full band mix and it becomes apparent it’s generally not good. Sure with enough tweaking and whatnot you could probably make it work, but I feel like you’re fighting an uphill battle for no reason.

I run a matrix pa into a Vader 2x12 and it’s absolutely beastly. It does help to figure out your cabs resonant frequency and tune that in the speaker page of the amp block. This will make a noticeable difference in the response and feel as well as the low end character. Using a tube amp does all that stuff naturally, but the solid state matrix doesn’t interact with the speaker the way a tube amp does so you have to set a few extra things manually.
 
With my SS power amp and cabs my Ultra sounded way better with the cab sims on... and it was much easier to dial in very good tones.

However, with the Axe II... the opposite was true, so now I leave it off. I painstakingly tried both ways with both units and the same amp and cabs.

In the end, let your ears and taste judge which to use, and listen to it relatively loud... ex: band levels. It makes a difference
 
There is a way to have both can you believe. In every preset I use, I keep the Cab block very last in the effects chain (on row 2). I also run a parallel signal splitting off just before the cab block to the output bypassing the cab block (on row 3).

In the output mixer simply pan row 2 (cab sim) to the Left and Row 3 (with no cab sim) to the Right. When you go direct simply plug into the L Balanced output to hear your Cab sims going direct. To use your real power amp and cab simply plug into the R Unbalanced output to go to your real power amp and cab.

I do this for every preset I use so I can go direct to FOH and also use a live cab for stage sound and oomph. The only sacrifice is that you have to play mono, but being in a 2 guitar band that's less of an issue. Another bonus of this method is that unlike other methods that require you to waste your effects loop just to do the same, this way you still have your effects loop free for outboard gear.
 
yek said:
The common approach is to disable Cab sims when you're running into a regular guitar speaker cab.

If that doesn't sound good at normal volume levels, something in the rig is set up wrong. Perhaps Power Amp Modeling is turned OFF by accident. You should not have to fix the issue by adding a cab sim.

However, some guitar speakers and some amps don't sound that great at very low volume levels. Instead of adjusting the gain and tone controls, it you can try adding a cab sim, because this adds low and top end. Turn off the cab sim as soon as you turn up the level, because the sound will get all mushy.
Click to expand...

No, I ran it at band rehearsals, at pretty high levels because the drummer was of the Cozy Powell variety, attack those drums mercilessly. It really was with the Marshall amp everything sounded fine without cabsim, the way it should be, and with the Matrix it was the reverse. Awful without cabsim, the way it should be with cab sim. The point is moot though as I no longer use the Marshall cabs (they weren't mine to begin with, but part of the rehearsal space) but a FRFR cab for rehearsal and straight into the FOH with in-ears for myself for live shows.
 
Running cab sims into a cab equivalent would be:
Place a cab in another room, mic it, send the mic signal to a power amp, and through a guitar cab.
That is ridiculous.
Normally, people just connect the amp to the cab, and rock out.
 
FreeMind said:
Running cab sims into a cab equivalent would be:
Place a cab in another room, mic it, send the mic signal to a power amp, and through a guitar cab.
That is ridiculous.
Normally, people just connect the amp to the cab, and rock out.
Click to expand...

If it sounds good then it is good

People probably said pushing an amp to the point of distortion was ridiculous once too, and now whole musician styles are based around that tone....

All a cab sim is is an EQ, and if the coloration of the IR plus that natural coloration of the speaker work well together, then it’s good

I personally think it sounds better, but I probably have a fairly neutral speaker/cab, so for me, using a 4x12 IR sounds better than without, especially if that it the tone I’m after. A clean 1x10 open back speaker might not sound subjectively good with a certain high gain amp model, not enough coloration. Add an IR and maybe it will sound better.

I’d say the only ridiculous choice would be to not take 10 seconds and try soemthing for one’s self, bypass it, take a listen, engage the block, take a listen. Pick the “better” tone

Only rule with the Axe is there are no rules
 
lqdsnddist said:
If it sounds good then it is good

People probably said pushing an amp to the point of distortion was ridiculous once too, and now whole musician styles are based around that tone....

All a cab sim is is an EQ, and if the coloration of the IR plus that natural coloration of the speaker work well together, then it’s good

I personally think it sounds better, but I probably have a fairly neutral speaker/cab, so for me, using a 4x12 IR sounds better than without, especially if that it the tone I’m after. A clean 1x10 open back speaker might not sound subjectively good with a certain high gain amp model, not enough coloration. Add an IR and maybe it will sound better.

I’d say the only ridiculous choice would be to not take 10 seconds and try soemthing for one’s self, bypass it, take a listen, engage the block, take a listen. Pick the “better” tone

Only rule with the Axe is there are no rules
Click to expand...

This above says it all. I also use cab sim on with my 25 watt greenbacks. In my opinion, I have a pretty mean tone and I've gotten nothing but compliments since I made the switch to Fractal.

Rocket, there's no such word as "rediculous" in a tone sculpting thread. We're talking about the modeling world which also places us in the virtual world where nothing is impossible, nor should it be discredited or ignored. Because of what the possibilities "may" appear to be on paper in a real world situation, doesn't mean those same rules apply in the modeling, virtual world.

Everyone has their own interpretation of what good tone is. And right there, it is and always will be, subjective. I have presets that use cab modeling on, cab blocks in the presets and power amp modeling on while using a 25 watt greenback and Rocktron Velocity power amp. Scientifically it should sound terrible, but to me it sounds fantastic and I can't use those presets any other way.

In some sounds, cab sim off alters the tone so bad, it's crazy. Power amp sim off does the same. One of them (can't remember which right now) sounds so fizzy and loaded with high end, it makes certain sounds not even usable unless it's enabled. For other sounds, both need to be disabled. But all my main sounds have cab and power amp sim on while physically using a cab and power amp.

With any sound creation, recording or experiment, always try everything and let your ears decide. Science helps lead us towards the truth, but doesn't always hit the nail on the head when it comes to a particular outcome.

The best way I describe stuff like this to my recording students is, you can see a reading on an eq chart. Sometimes they look so good but the music sounds so bad. Other times, the eq chart is all over the place yet the music sounds great. Always let your ears be the judge. If it sounds good, it IS good.....even if you're the only one who thinks so.
 
Work like charm with cabs sim on..all my presets have this cab sim ON..and I have only congrats about my tone..AXE ULTRA into Matrix 1000 and 2x12 V 30 two cabs
 
If you use a real cabinet, don't use a cab block, at least you make the preset with an amp block and a cab block but between both blocks the fx loop to connect your cabinet. Something like that i show you here:
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I use a couple Orange cabs and I run it with cab sim on as well. Funny part is, the first entire year I had my AxeFx, I didn't realize the frikkin amp sims were off
 
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