What am I doing wrong? AFX3 sounds awful when played loud

paulmapp8306 said:
Its difficult to jump in with suggestions - when cliff already has lol... BUT:

1. Im the same as others - I dont generally find factory - or 3rd party - presets work for me. All the ones I use Ive built myself. This has always been the case since my first standard in 2007.

2. backline/amp makes all the difference in the world..... Its one reason I STILL like a power amp and my 2x12 zilla (with 1 x v30 and 1 x creamback). There is a factory cab (a zilla one with creambacks) that sounds pretty close as it should. Its kind of what Im used to hearing I guess (had that cab with heads pre-axf). using amp/cab keeps things consistent.

3. Ive been through some good PAs and it sounded rubbish, Ive been through some cheap PAs and it sounded worse lol. The RIGHT good PA and it sounds really nice. Ditto for monitors. My Adam A5xs were OK but not great, and I had events and something else prior that were worse. My current Neumann KH120s with the KH750 sub is TOTALLY different. sounds AND feels pretty great at any volume.

IMO - IF your going direct to desk - you either need a competent soundman (either a really good one, or at least ne that knows the PA his mixing on) OR need to find a PA that works for you, and always use that (not always possible of course - and sometimes not even wanted) . Youll get the same problems with a real amp/cab mind through a poor PA or with a poor soundman.
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Do you have a preset you wouldn’t mind sharing please..? Interested to see how different it is.
 
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FarleyUK said:
Not looking to start a flame war or anything, I honestly want the AFX3 to work for me - but I’ve just spent 4 hours in a studio with it cranked loudly through both my two RS-LG12 cabs and a Bose PA, and I just can’t get a decent sound.

I’ve tried the cygnus presets and AustinBuddy’s LiveGold pack - however, all of them are very shrill and have a strange ‘bark’ going on with the cabs.

I’ve played around with the output EQ, and have had to cut about -8 at 750hz with a q of 2, and -8 at around 2500 with a q of around 2. Cut of about -3 at 5500 with a Q of 1. Hi and low cut set to 6500 and 125.

I’ve tried the Plexi models, JCM800 models, Friedman BE and HBE, Atomica, CCV etc… but it still has that nasty ‘bark’ quality.

maybe I’m just rubbish at this , but I’d really appreciate any advice.
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Do you have any pedals in your audio signal that has a buffer?
 
I think the most telling vid I watched recently was Leon Todd setting up his presets for playing live through his FR stage monitor (CLR).

The first point I noted being that he doesn't have a whole lot of live presets for his gig - he could do it with one preset and channels/scenes ... so maybe try to resist the temptation to go buck crazy and have 20 different amps/cabs for a 2 hour gig.

He created the presets using his Adam studio monitors - same as most of his other demo videos I expect - but when it came to actually playing them live on stage he didn't just stick an additional PEQ in the chain to help but also changed the whole cab IR because the CLR at stage volume would have been too toppy and shrill compared to what the Adams reproduced at their near field volumes and also their smaller speakers. The cab IR is what? 50% of the EQ ... more?

So presets dialled using near fields are unlikely to work best when thrown out of a bigger cab .... how many third party presets are actually created in a proper live situation? Some people must have a bloody long and varied set list .... and a patient band.

I think there really is only one way to completely satisfy yourself and that is to do it yourself - so just start simple with amp and cab if using FR cabs and do it loud and when the gain and 'balls' of the amp block sounds about there try and find the magic 'darker' cab IR that makes your FRFR Fletcher Munsoning cabs sound good ..... the FOH feed can be fixed at the desk where it's supposed to be. The PA will be pumping it out at volume too - so thats another amp/cab pairing and another FM EQ setting - but not really in your control - so get your own cabs right first.
 
jlynnb1 said:
not really sure how that would help anything
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I’m assuming they were referring to the amp master volume maybe being too high and making it sound nasty..?

I’m starting to build some patches from scratch - focusing around the BE and HBE, with IRs staying in ribbon mic areas to try and ‘darken’ the sound.

I also found a load of OwnHammer packs I purchased a while ago - I know they have some dark mixes, so will give them a whirl as well.

Thanks everyone for your ongoing help and advice :)
 
maxdown said:
I think the most telling vid I watched recently was Leon Todd setting up his presets for playing live through his FR stage monitor (CLR).

The first point I noted being that he doesn't have a whole lot of live presets for his gig - he could do it with one preset and channels/scenes ... so maybe try to resist the temptation to go buck crazy and have 20 different amps/cabs for a 2 hour gig.

He created the presets using his Adam studio monitors - same as most of his other demo videos I expect - but when it came to actually playing them live on stage he didn't just stick an additional PEQ in the chain to help but also changed the whole cab IR because the CLR at stage volume would have been too toppy and shrill compared to what the Adams reproduced at their near field volumes and also their smaller speakers. The cab IR is what? 50% of the EQ ... more?

So presets dialled using near fields are unlikely to work best when thrown out of a bigger cab .... how many third party presets are actually created in a proper live situation? Some people must have a bloody long and varied set list .... and a patient band.

I think there really is only one way to completely satisfy yourself and that is to do it yourself - so just start simple with amp and cab if using FR cabs and do it loud and when the gain and 'balls' of the amp block sounds about there try and find the magic 'darker' cab IR that makes your FRFR Fletcher Munsoning cabs sound good ..... the FOH feed can be fixed at the desk where it's supposed to be. The PA will be pumping it out at volume too - so thats another amp/cab pairing and another FM EQ setting - but not really in your control - so get your own cabs right first.
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That’s exactly it - I cannot create patches at full volume, as the band would kill me due to the time and number I need!

it’s also not really possible to blast it at gig volumes at home.
 
FractalAudio said:
Sounds like you're clipping somewhere. If you have to turn treble down that much then you are likely clipping somewhere, probably outside the Axe-Fx. If the Axe-Fx is set to +4 dBu it is capable of very high signal levels, enough to overpower some mixers and monitors. Friedmans are dark amps so something isn't right. If you are using XLR cables be sure the mixer/monitor is set to line level not mic level.

As with any modeler the quality of the playback devices is of utmost importance. Right now I'm playing loud through a pair of Focal Trio 11 Be and it sounds stunning. I'm actually comparing the Axe-Fx with several other high-end modeling products in an A/B test and the sound is just exquisite and the feel is amazing.
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This is one reason I wish you guys would make a dedicated powered FR FR speaker. If you did all the guys that aren't confident programming (those that buy presets for a start) could just buy it and know that this is how it sounds instead of trying to get a tone with not very compatible gear. You could just have a setting for: AXE CAB and off you go instead of chasing something that your FR FR is murdering. Did someone say Head(fuck)rush. :tearsofjoy:
 
FractalAudio said:
Sounds like you're clipping somewhere. If you have to turn treble down that much then you are likely clipping somewhere, probably outside the Axe-Fx. If the Axe-Fx is set to +4 dBu it is capable of very high signal levels, enough to overpower some mixers and monitors. Friedmans are dark amps so something isn't right. If you are using XLR cables be sure the mixer/monitor is set to line level not mic level.

As with any modeler the quality of the playback devices is of utmost importance. Right now I'm playing loud through a pair of Focal Trio 11 Be and it sounds stunning. I'm actually comparing the Axe-Fx with several other high-end modeling products in an A/B test and the sound is just exquisite and the feel is amazing.
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Nice to have confirmation from the boss about the legitimacy and awesomeness of Focal product, which I have been advocating since acquiring a pair of Solo BE , and feel the quality extends throughout their product line, including their (much ) less expensive Alpha monitors, and their headphones compete with any I have tried….Coincidentally , a contractor I have recently been consulting for my music space has a connection with yet another branch of Focal, room treatment and studio design..may be checking them out..
 
bradlake said:
Nice to have confirmation from the boss about the legitimacy and awesomeness of Focal product, which I have been advocating since acquiring a pair of Solo BE , and feel the quality extends throughout their product line, including their (much ) less expensive Alpha monitors, and their headphones compete with any I have tried….Coincidentally , a contractor I have recently been consulting for my music space has a connection with yet another branch of Focal, room treatment and studio design..may be checking them out..
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The Trio 11 Be are very good monitors but they are VERY heavy. The tweeters are little too directional as well so you have to be careful with placement.

I couldn't even find stands that were rated high enough to support the weight so I had to have a pair of custom stands made for them.
 
FarleyUK said:
Do you have a preset you wouldn’t mind sharing please..? Interested to see how different it is.
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dont think it will be massive - just personal taste more than anything. I just like a certain sound - its why I went to the AFX 14 years ago... even top end amps, I couldnt find one that was just right. some came close but always something... either a clean channel wasnt my taste, or the drive, or a certain frequency I couldnt dial out that was annoying - or in for that matter. With the AFX sounds, its mainly the cabs, and if there not ithe ones I personally gell with Im having add EQ to try and get them right - which takes ages and n most cases still isnt quite what Im after. Im just a picky sod.

i find it easier to start from scratch that to tweek a factory sound is all.
 
maxdown said:
The cab IR is what? 50% of the EQ ... more?
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some may beg to differ, but I think its about 85% the cab.....

I remember a few years back a vid showing about 20- amps through one cab, then one amp through about 6 cabs. While there were subtle differences between the amps into a single cab - there were by and large very similar. the 1 amp through 20 cabs though was a VERY wide range of different sounds.
 
FarleyUK said:
That’s exactly it - I cannot create patches at full volume, as the band would kill me due to the time and number I need!

it’s also not really possible to blast it at gig volumes at home.
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Been there.

in the early days I just hired a rehersal space myself for a day and did all my sounds at gig level. I had some of the bands tracks as well so I could here it in our mix once Id got them close - and further tuned them.

I generally only use 2 or 3 amps into 1 or 2 cabs live though. Yes you can get the perfect sound for every track - but its a nightmare to balance the volumes, and is actually quite disjointed sonically. Most of the "variations" in sound came from different FX on those core tones.
 
FarleyUK said:
I’m assuming they were referring to the amp master volume maybe being too high and making it sound nasty..?

I’m starting to build some patches from scratch - focusing around the BE and HBE, with IRs staying in ribbon mic areas to try and ‘darken’ the sound.

I also found a load of OwnHammer packs I purchased a while ago - I know they have some dark mixes, so will give them a whirl as well.

Thanks everyone for your ongoing help and advice :)
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Quick follow up question on the amp master volume - I’ve followed the advice of turning it up until the amp stops getting louder, and then backing it down. The BE for example is pretty shrill - should I be turning it down until the headroom meter stops peeking at 0…?

Incidentally, the OwnHammer OH3 mixes seem to be more in the area of what I’m looking for - darker but not muffled.
 
I don't find the headroom meter very helpful.

It's a bit of a bother, but I have to incrementally increase the master until it warms up and stop once it becomes woofy and rubbery feeling. There doesn't seem to be a consistent point from amp to amp.

But if it's set too high or too low, it's hopeless. It's too thin and bright if too low, and cutting high end just makes it muffled. It's too woofy and compressed if the master is too high, and dumping in extra high end just adds harshness. IME YMMV etc.
 
Another thing is see if you can play some recordings of songs you know well and like through the PA. If the recordings come out Barky too... well you've narrowed it down.
 
A little late to the party but the Austin Buddy presets have a toe down wah in them. If you dont have a pedal plugged in and turned off, they will all have a cocked wah sound to them because the wah in the preset is cocked. Plug a pedal in or delete the wah block.

I had the same issue, hopefully that helps
 
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TheGoatLord said:
A little late to the party but the Austin Buddy presets have a toe down wah in them. If you dont have a pedal plugged in and turned off, they will all have a cocked wah sound to them because the wah in the preset is cocked. Plug a pedal in or delete the wah block.

I had the same issue, hopefully that helps
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Thanks, I made sure I removed it though 😊
 
FarleyUK said:
Quick follow up question on the amp master volume - I’ve followed the advice of turning it up until the amp stops getting louder, and then backing it down. The BE for example is pretty shrill - should I be turning it down until the headroom meter stops peeking at 0…?
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Almost definitely not for something like the BE, in loud playing it should be hitting the 0 at least a bit, and then turn up a little more until you have saturation that you are happy with. That meter tells you how hard you are working the power amp simulation, and for good "Classic British" based amps the great tones tend to be with the modelled power amp clipping, and providing just a little of the dirt.

I had similar issues to you with the Axe FXII when I first got it, but the problem came when I bypassed the cabinet IR block because I was using a real 4x12 when playing out. Turned out it was letting the output level to be high enough that I was overdriving the next block (the Cab block was acting as an attenuator when not bypassed), and digital clipping sounds just awful. Thin and fizzy. The meters page in the Axe FX III layout view are just great for making sure everything is staying under control all the way through the internal signal chain. Then for anything after the Axe FX, make sure the masters are up pretty high, and then creep any gain controls up to avoid overdriving preamps.

Liam
 
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