Wet Dry Wet layout

D

Docster

Member
In another thread RandyVanMartini said: ...you might as well go whole hog and go for a w\d\w set up....nothing sounds quite the same! You send a dry amp signal through the matrix and out to your 4x12 for the center dry channel, and then all you need is a quality pair of powered frfr speakers for your left and right wet channels. This kind of set up sounds HUGE, and is loads of fun to play through! I have a gt1000fx myself going through a 4x12, along with a pair of clrs for the frfr, and I can’t imagine playing through anything else, really.

Since that thread was moved to the Amps and Cabs section I wanted to ask these questions here:

  1. Can anyone describe the layout used to create this? I currently have a WDW rig running a Friedman BE100/Matrix 1000, but am on the waitlist for the III (3/10). I am considering all of the possibilities.....
  2. Would you use an amp block with no IR direct to the Matrix for this type of setup?
  3. Can the AxeIII mix any of the dry signal in with the wet cabs?
  4. Does the AxeIII act in any way as a mixer? I currently use a Mark L DSLM for this function.
 
Docster said:
  1. Can anyone describe the layout used to create this? I currently have a WDW rig running a Friedman BE100/Matrix 1000, but am on the waitlist for the III (3/10). I am considering all of the possibilities.....
  2. Would you use an amp block with no IR direct to the Matrix for this type of setup?
  3. Can the AxeIII mix any of the dry signal in with the wet cabs?
  4. Does the AxeIII act in any way as a mixer? I currently use a Mark L DSLM for this function.
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the basic layout is that your dry signal will go out one output mono (say output 1) and also into your post amp effects, which then go out another output in stereo.

you could use cab blocks if you're using an entirely FRFR speaker setup, or you could have traditional guitar cabs with no cab blocks, or mix and match any of the above.

traditionally in a W/D/W rig you would run your post-amp effects 100% wet, so that no dry signal goes into the wet outputs, but there's no reason that you have to do that.
 
I used to gig lots W/D/W.....sounds indeed huge....:)

BUT unless you have a steady sound engineer who knows what to do , forget about it......most sound engineers already have trouble dealing with the dry amp sound....dont even know what to do with the stereo FX sound ...or start playing around with the FX levels compared to your dry amp sound....DONT give them soo much control over your sound...:)

Mix everything in the AXE 3 itself and only give them a stereo signal....:)
 
lqdsnddist said:
With everything having a mix/blend control and being able to have post cab effects there really isn’t a real need for WDW rigs anymore

Just run stereo and pan effects to taste. A lot less effort and a lot less gear
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Can someone share a preset as an example of how this sounds? Thanks.
 
curious said:
Can someone share a preset as an example of how this sounds? Thanks.
Click to expand...


The only reason people really needed WD rigs was because a given effect didn’t have a way to mix the effect with the dry, or it had horrible tone suck on the dry signal, etc.

It wasn’t an ideal solution, as it was a lot of hardware, but there just wasn’t an option with most rigs.

Now every effect can be blended, either series or parallel, and there is zero “tone suck” issues.

It really doesn’t sound that different having a wet amp running a very low effect level, and having an amp that is running an effect at a low mix level.

Obvious advantage is that you don’t have big issues with volume changes when you turn off the wet effect.

The Axe can easily do it, but it’s just kind of a hardware limited way of thinking, when you’ve got the freedom to get around all those issues with in the box routing
 
IMO, a WDW setup using the III , (so easy to setup and tweak precisely on) , is best experienced and used in a controlled home studio/ jamroom environment where the dry cab can be behind you, and the stereo pair centered for your position ..3D fun!!!
 
A Wet-Dry-Wet configuration in the Axe-Fx is totally unnecessary, really. I'm not saying "it's overkill and wasteful so you shouldn't do it" but rather I mean it provides literally zero auditory benefit over a good stereo setup. I've A/Bed a setup of stereo CLR speakers vs 3 CLR speakers in W-D-W and literally could not hear a difference, mostly due to how fantastic the stereo imaging is with the CLRs. A single Amp block panned center in a pair of CLRs sounds identical to a single amp block only playing from a single CLR in between them, not just tonally, but spatially, meaning with my eyes closed I actually could not tell the difference.

The main utility that a W-D-W setup really brings to the table in the realm of traditional tube amp rigs is that it allows for clean effects at the same time as an overdriven tube poweramp, which is something you can't do with just an effects loop if you're overdriving the power section of a tube amp. However, the Axe-Fx can already accomplish this, as any effect can be placed after the modeled tube breakup on the grid.

If you want to use a tube poweramp plus a traditional cab along with CLRs, you'll probably hear a slight difference as your cab is not going to sound exactly like an IR coming through a monitor without tons of work, but it's probably not going to change the stereo imaging much if at all.


However, if you really want to do it, it's pretty much as simple as this:

eK6ngJp.png


The image shows an Out 3 block after the cab block. However, the Out 2 block uses XLR sends, so feel free to use an Out 2 block after the Cab block if you want as CLRs can accept XLR inputs.
 
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I agree...since I have the Axe FX , no more need for the w/d/w config........before the Axe FX : absolutely loved it just because of how pure / raw my dry signal sounded and don't forget :

The FX coming from a 4x12 cab is missing lots of freq compared to coming from FRFR speaker......

so dry signal through a 4x12 and FX through FRFR speakers.......again : since the AXE FX , no more need for it :)
 
Docster said:
  1. Can anyone describe the layout used to create this? I currently have a WDW rig running a Friedman BE100/Matrix 1000, but am on the waitlist for the III (3/10). I am considering all of the possibilities.....
  2. Would you use an amp block with no IR direct to the Matrix for this type of setup?
  3. Can the AxeIII mix any of the dry signal in with the wet cabs?
  4. Does the AxeIII act in any way as a mixer? I currently use a Mark L DSLM for this function.
Click to expand...

Hey Doc

It looks like @GreatGreen beat me to showing how this would look in on the grid of the Axe III. Here is a shot of one of my typical layouts for w/d/w. I will have to disagree however, with his comment that it is totally unnecessary though. Even though the Axe sounds phenomenal through my two clrs alone, the dry amp signal coming from the matrix/4x12 just takes the sound to a whole nother level for me! As @bradlake put it, its very 3D sounding! But since you already know how w/d/w sounds I don't have to sell you on it. The cool thing is that the Axe III can do this with no real Friedman needed!

As you can see in the layout, out 1 is feeding the stereo frfr speakers complete with cab ir block and stereo effects. The signal branches out before the cab and effects to out 2, which feeds the Matrix\4x12. And yes, I do run quite a bit of dry amp mixed in the out 1 signal, as it just sounds best that way.

There are a lot of ways you could incorporate your BE 100 in this scenario, using it for the dry for example, but I think you will find it really isn't needed. There really is no wrong or right to setting this up. As for whether or not it's worth it, only your ears can decide.;)


 
As a side note....for anyone running w\d\w, try putting your wah where it is pictured in the screen shot above....great different effect!
 
RandyVanMartini said:
Hey Doc

It looks like @GreatGreen beat me to showing how this would look in on the grid of the Axe III. Here is a shot of one of my typical layouts for w/d/w. I will have to disagree however, with his comment that it is totally unnecessary though. Even though the Axe sounds phenomenal through my two clrs alone, the dry amp signal coming from the matrix/4x12 just takes the sound to a whole nother level for me! As @bradlake put it, its very 3D sounding! But since you already know how w/d/w sounds I don't have to sell you on it. The cool thing is that the Axe III can do this with no real Friedman needed!

As you can see in the layout, out 1 is feeding the stereo frfr speakers complete with cab ir block and stereo effects. The signal branches out before the cab and effects to out 2, which feeds the Matrix\4x12. And yes, I do run quite a bit of dry amp mixed in the out 1 signal, as it just sounds best that way.

There are a lot of ways you could incorporate your BE 100 in this scenario, using it for the dry for example, but I think you will find it really isn't needed. There really is no wrong or right to setting this up. As for whether or not it's worth it, only your ears can decide.;)


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Trippy! So your wah goes through your wet effects speakers, and not through the main dry signal, right? Is that for a specific song or your typical MO?
 
mikeransom said:
Trippy! So your wah goes through your wet effects speakers, and not through the main dry signal, right? Is that for a specific song or your typical MO?
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Yes exactly! I just tried it on a whim one day and thought it sounded really good, so been putting it there in all presets lately. Keep in mind though, I have quite a bit of dry amp going to the wets as well, so it doesn’t sound TOO trippy;)......just sounds great!
 
Admin M@ said:
I don't think I'd go that far. If you've ever tried a true W-D-W, you'll know that it can be fun for YOU, the player, to control the rig and experience its sound in this way. Fun is a benefit.
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I suppose I can only speak from my experience with two vs three Atomic CLRs, which are seriously accurate and powerful, so it kind of makes sense that there would be minimal difference between those setups. I wasn't exaggerating about that particular setup though. I really did go through the motions of setting up three CLRs, then A/Bing a patch running an Amp block through only the middle speaker vs the same Amp block running through only the outer two speakers and, without hyperbole, literally could not hear a difference between the two setups. Both setups made the amp sound like it was coming from dead center and even physically removing the center speaker, the center-panning tricked my brain into thinking anything panned to the middle was being localized between the two speakers.

I tried this both with and without effects and as far as I can hear, no difference. The speakers were relatively close together though, the space between each speaker was maybe the width of another CLR. If the speakers would have been across the room from each other, it would have probably been a different story.

I do think that with a traditional tube amp + cab rig, the difference would probably be a lot more pronounced though.
 
I will admit that at home I play with things like my centerpoint stereo monitor, and set it up so it’s playing just a rotary part, or just a 100% wet reverb etc.

It’s darn fun hearing things like this cavernous reverb sound which is coming from an independent physical location than my CLR cabs. Really makes me thing I’m in a huge hall if I close my eyes....

It’s a double edged sword though becasue when I come up with those cool sounds I need to remember that no one listening to a recording will hear what I hear, or at a venue etc

So it’s essentially just that, my own sonic enjoyment. But hey, I’m the one who payed for all the stuff so might as well enjoy it right?
 
I've falling in love with a Hughes & Kettner Amp deluxe 40 but still depended on my Axe/2*Atomic active wedges. Now a have the possibility to test this wet/dry/wet setup.

So is it like this? :

The two atomics runs the normal output of the Axe left/right. Then I will feed the tube amp with send signal from the Axe to have the tone from Kettner in my dry cab. (Just to have that signature sound of the Kettner in the dry section)


1. Is it controlable on stage?

2. How to set the speakers on stage (all in the left corner or left right to each side with the dry behind myself as it can't be right in the middle behind the drummer)?

3. If I have fair amount of dry signal with a normal left/right system isn't that the same as this w/d/w?

It sounds really funny and worth the experiment and also gives a reason to by the tube amp with all the blue lights... :) or when thinking about it, - is it a bad idea to go with a tube amp instead the possibility to change amp using send from the Axe (using two amp blocks in the Axe)???
 
As awesome as it is to play through a w/d/w set up, I think you might be hard pressed to get the same results when playing live gigs. Plus,I don’t think I’d want to carry all that extra stuff around!
 
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