Went Direct for the first time and regretted it...

Vhalen50 said:
I used Yek's idea I believe, in putting a split signal with a cab in the loop to the FX loop (Out2) while the rest goes to output1 to my poweramp/cab setup. I never thought about doing the IR of my cab and all that, I can try that. I usually keep Power Amp sims on at all times because of my QSC being a solid state one.
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It's way better to run your direct signal through output 1 and your poweramp signal through output 2.
Most of the times your poweramp is very close to your axe while the console is not.
 
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Vhalen50 said:
I used Yek's idea I believe, in putting a split signal with a cab in the loop to the FX loop (Out2) while the rest goes to output1 to my poweramp/cab setup. I never thought about doing the IR of my cab and all that, I can try that. I usually keep Power Amp sims on at all times because of my QSC being a solid state one.
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I haven't read all the posts, but the above means the sound guy didn't get the cab block in his signal when you gave him your output 1 signal.
Next time bring at least a DI box.
 
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Use out2 to send the signal to your PA and cab(s) (since usually you only need line outs for this kind of connection) and use out1 (xlrs) to send your foh mix. Just put the cab block last in your layout and place an effects loop block right before the cab. Also, make sure you haven't bypassed the PA and cab block sims and that you are not using the copy out1>out2. In most cases you'll want to use the xlrs for foh since they provide a cleaner signal for long(er) distances, so maybe you should just readjust all your patches so that they use out2 for your power amp and real cab instead of out1.
 
SimonDreyer said:
I have had a similar experience where the sound guy insisted that I plug into the amp on stage that he had all miked up. I finally agreed, but when he wasn't watching, I unplugged the mike cable from the stage-box/snake and plugged my cable in direct from the axe :), He never even worked it out. I even managed to plug another lead into the powered wedge on stage so was running a standard FRFR config.

Cheers S
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The xlr feed from the Axe is line level so, assuming the cab was miked with dynamic mic(s), the sound guy would have got a much hotter signal than expected .... just goes to show that half these so called sound engineers are just volume jockeys.

merlin17 said:
Next time bring at least at DI box.
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+1 .... preferably one with attenuation pads.

Of course if the FOH sound guy isn't prepared to do a bit of tweaking on your channel's eq you're probably screwed anyway. As the sm57 is probably the most commonly used stage mic for cabs it's probably worth storing a few IRs using it with 4x12, 2x12 and 1x12 speaker/cab options.
 
I've found that some "sound guys" are frustrated musicians. They don't enjoy helping people who can actually play. "Sound guy" refused..."sound guy" didn't want. We walked on a similar gig once because "sound guy" refused to play nice. We were going to sue (contract, always have a contract), but, before we left the bar owner let "sound guy" know we were in charge and he was fired if he didn't play nice. Sometimes you have to be the bigger jerk to get stuff done. Gig went OK, although "sound guy" did make some "accidental" mistakes on purpose. Lay down the law. It's YOUR GIG!
 
I ask for 2 outs to board. Then I go to the board and dial in the sound. Trust no one with YOUR tone. If the soundman resists......scream like a 4 year old girl and fling poo at his/her direction. You will get your way or get thrown out. At the end of the day....You did it for Tone!! ;)
 
GuitarDojo said:
I ask for 2 outs to board. Then I go to the board and dial in the sound. Trust no one with YOUR tone. If the soundman resists......scream like a 4 year old girl and fling poo at his/her direction. You will get your way or get thrown out. At the end of the day....You did it for Tone!! ;)
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I have respectfully disagree on this one.. as a soundguy first and foremost - long before I ever started playing and being on stage - I've dealt with way too many meat heads that react that way. They are basically clueless, and FACT is - you REALLY DON'T want to piss-off the sound guy - even if HE happens to be a meat head too! He can do all kinds of damage to your sound, and possibly monitor mix, and we all know how emotional and tempremental musicians are right?

There are exceptions to every rule and that also applies to soundguys, tho' most of us REALLY DO try to make you sound the best you can. However, there ARE sound crew that work for the main act or the house that have instructions to concentrate on the main act, so YOU get THEIR board EQ/setup. End of story!!

Most sound guys I know - who are any good - are more than happy to take a direct feed to FOH. However, I don' care if you're Eric Clapton or Steve Vai, if you come up to my console and try to set/EQ your input and tell me "this is how it goes" - you are toast.That is no different than me walking up to your rig and tweaking YOUR EQ. Hands off!

Not every console is the same, even the same model from same vendor. EQ settings are different and levels differ too. Can you tell from looking at the channel strip IF EQ is even engaged? Do you know if the Hi/Low EQ's are bandpass or shelving and can you tell if its parametric or swept mids? I thought so!

You do your job, and I'll do mine! Which is - too make sure you fit in the mix and the band sounds the best I can make it !~!


And please don't ask me to pan your stereo feed hard left/right... but I'll save that for another rant!
<end rant>
 
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s0c9 said:
You do your job, and I'll do mine!
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This is valid across many, if not all, fields of knowledge!

And please don't ask me to pan your stereo feed hard left/right...
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Would you please elaborate this? Lately I started to design stereo patches to be used as the only guitar player of the band, so I'd like to know how to deal with it live.
 
Vhalen50 said:
Im most likely going to keep out1 for FOH just so that soundmen can stop complaining. But ive been dealing with this "opening act soundmen" issue for 2 years! Even if we are the headline act. Not having your own traveling soundman just equals disaster 99.9% of the time.
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That's why I always have my own Yamaha didital mixer on top on my rig ,with ready to go presets for my band for deferent venues..And I prefer small imperfection then " creativity of most sound guys" ;-).It saved my ass many times..
 
s0c9 said:
Most sound guys I know - who are any good - are more than happy to take a direct feed to FOH.
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And that is the big problem with some sound guys: they don't have any clue about music.
That's why we take our own sound guy. IMHO the sound guy is the most important person, he can make you or break you.

just my 2 ct.
 
I always use OUT 1 to FOH, OUT 2 to my power amp and guitar cabs. I place the cab sim last in line before the outputs and insert the FX Loop block before the cab block. OUT 1 gets cab and power amp sims, OUT 2 gets power amp sims but no cab sims.

This way the XLR's are going to the FOH....most sound guys love that, they don't want to deal with 1/4" cables. You can use the Global EQ's to tweak for the PA and room issues instead of tweaking every single preset. Easy squeezy.


Mark
 
Vhalen50 said:
I "bought into" modeling for the whole package. What I can't change is that my band doesnt always play venues that have sufficient sound systems that can get over a drum set. That's out of my control and the reason I have always used a cabinet.
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I have a QSC K10 on the Floor and a QSC K8 that I sidewash the Stage with.
Both are 1000 watts. I used the K8 for Sidewash because it has a Wider Dispersion angle, so my Bassist, Singer and Drummer can all Hear what my Cabinets used to do.
The advantage is that my K8 Side wash and K10 Floor Monitor are putting out exactly what I am sending to my PA or the Venues FOH.
So when I hear too much Treble in my New Patch, I know the PA is getting too much Treble as well.

I run Output 1 in Stereo to the PA.
Output 2 Left to the Sidewash.
For Large Venues I run Output 2 Right to my K10.
Using my Own PA I run an Aux Bus with only my Right to my K10 and some Vocals as well.
The QSC's can definitely keep up with a Drummer and then some, They Kick!
I run them Cranked and use Output 2 at about 33%... so I have room to be even louder if I needed.

One thing to Remember is many Guitar Centers or other Shops will give you 15 days.
So the best thing is to try them for yourself.
 
Mark Day said:
.most sound guys love that, they don't want to deal with 1/4" cables.
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A $4 XLR to 1/4 adapter works too. We used to use an old snake, which only had 1/4 (for miking amps...). Even after that, it's come in damn'd handy many times. I have so much misc. crap in my gig bag because you never know what a sound guy will demand (and regardless of people talking about 'demand what you want', I've NEVER found it to be a good thing to piss off the sound guy...)
 
voes said:
And that is the big problem with some sound guys: they don't have any clue about music.
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And it's also the same big problem with guitar players/musicians.. they don't have a clue about sound. There's a huge difference between what is obtainable in a studio/recording situation versus live. That's why many bands sound different live vs. memorex!

Knowing what you "want" your guitar to sound like and having it sit in the "mix" are *often* TWO different animals. Many players do not know how to achieve that having tweaked their tone at home. For example - recall Pete Thorn's original Axe-II demo vids ?? ... many thought it sounded high-ended, edgy and harsh. But I guarantee you they sit perfectly in a mix when keys, drums, bass, vocals and other instruments are added.

Great guitar tone does not come from someone soloing alone and tweaking in a bedroom thru studio monitors or phones. There's many other factors involved - such as the FM effect. How many posts on "my presets don't sound good live" have we seen here??? What you hear on your favorite recordings is often highly processed, overdubbed, multi-tracked and "squashed" into the end result. Too often folks assume that imitating that sound will work live 'cus it's on CD!! For example - kick drums sometimes have FOUR mics put on them in the studio to capture the in-the-room sound, the close-up, the direct, etc. and are then all merged together. There's no way you are going to get four mics on a kick drum for the average live venue. Same scenario with guitar...

True, there are "loser" sound guys out there for sure.. I've worked with some that shouldn't be in charge of parking, never mind a 48-channel mixing console. But it's a symbiotic relationship. If you approach the sound guy up front - not 2 minutes before you go on - and let them know your objectives, most *WILL WORK* with you. All bets are off if you feed them garbage, right? Don't also forget that you have a PA to amplify the sound of the band. If the house PA is any good, having a cranked 4x12 on stage is NOT HELPING! If the drummer is TOO LOUD for a club venue, either turn him down or find another drummer. Lower stage volumes provide FOH with FAR greater control over your end result. That result is generally better when you and the soundguy are NOT competing.

Obviously, YMMV ! :)
 
This got blown out of proportion. :eek:

Golden Rules:
1) Don't trust a soundman until he gives you a reason to
2) IR a cabinet
3) If all else fails..scream like a 4 year old.
 
I guess you will never work for Eric Clapton or Steve Vai then. Pretty sure if you were FOH for Eric and he walked out front to tell you what he wanted and you said "Hands off my board" you would be on the side of the road when the bus pulled out that night.

And that IS entirely different than you (the tech) walking up to the rig and tweaking it. The tech works for the artist, not the other way around.

s0c9 said:
Most sound guys I know - who are any good - are more than happy to take a direct feed to FOH. However, I don' care if you're Eric Clapton or Steve Vai, if you come up to my console and try to set/EQ your input and tell me "this is how it goes" - you are toast.That is no different than me walking up to your rig and tweaking YOUR EQ. Hands off!
<end rant>
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