Weird Speaker Drive in 5.07

I think the speaker drive sounds very realistc. It works mainly on the low notes on my patches, long before the high ones start to fall apart.
 
Niklas Nilsson said:
I think the speaker drive sounds very realistc. It works mainly on the low notes on my patches, long before the high ones start to fall apart.
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Not on mine. Low notes and chords will dull the sound of the speaker as the speaker is pushed harder (which should be the case - that's realistic), but at the same volume level high notes will cause the speaker to completely drop out. The drop outs are on the order of perhaps 1/8 to 1/2 of a second and make the setting unusable. If the Speaker Drive level is set such that high notes don't cause it to drop out, the effect of the Speaker Drive on low notes and chords is minimal.

In any event, it doesn't sound like a real speaker being pushed hard and it exhibits bizarre behavior in my unit (5.07). Perhaps there's something common to my patches that causes this, but I haven't yet discovered what could possibly cause this. I'll experiment further.

Thanks.
 
Search4Tone,

Check out the two presets in this thread.

Both have the Speaker Drive set at 8.76. Both use the Cameron 2 -> Cab -> parallel Delay and verb.

But the Speaker Drive control has a drastically different effect on the two presets.

I think the results you get with the Speaker Drive setting are directly related to the other Amp Block settings, the Cab block settings and the IR. It really is all over the place based on these other factors.

I rarely get the speaker drive up to 4-5 on my presets. But to test out the OP issues, I cranked it to 8.76. If you load my preset, something good happens to the tone around 8. Weird, but it happens in that preset.

Richard
 
barhrecords said:
Search4Tone,

Check out the two presets in this thread.

Both have the Speaker Drive set at 8.76. Both use the Cameron 2 -> Cab -> parallel Delay and verb.

But the Speaker Drive control has a drastically different effect on the two presets.

I think the results you get with the Speaker Drive setting are directly related to the other Amp Block settings, the Cab block settings and the IR. It really is all over the place based on these other factors.

I rarely get the speaker drive up to 4-5 on my presets. But to test out the OP issues, I cranked it to 8.76. If you load my preset, something good happens to the tone around 8. Weird, but it happens in that preset.

Richard
Click to expand...

Just got home, will try it out.

Thanks.
 
barhrecords said:
Search4Tone,

Check out the two presets in this thread.

Both have the Speaker Drive set at 8.76. Both use the Cameron 2 -> Cab -> parallel Delay and verb.

But the Speaker Drive control has a drastically different effect on the two presets.

I think the results you get with the Speaker Drive setting are directly related to the other Amp Block settings, the Cab block settings and the IR. It really is all over the place based on these other factors.

I rarely get the speaker drive up to 4-5 on my presets. But to test out the OP issues, I cranked it to 8.76. If you load my preset, something good happens to the tone around 8. Weird, but it happens in that preset.

Richard
Click to expand...

I'm unable to load your patch. I know it's not an issue with my computer or USB connection since I can load any other patch I've created. Are you on 5.07?
 
I just tried it on 4 different amp models with default settings. It's gain and compression dependent.

With totally uncompressed clean sounds I can adjust it so that I can hear some distortion on all notes without the high notes dropping out. With med-high gain distorted sounds or compressed clean sounds, if I adjust it so that the highest notes on the fret board don't cause it to drop out, it has no effect on the low notes or chords.

It can be adjusted to give a nice breakup on low notes and chords that sounds realistic. However, any setting that gives the slightest hint of distortion on low notes and chords causes dropout on the high notes, exactly like the sound clip that was posted.

I'm not going to play around with a bunch of parameters and compromise what are some good sounding patches I worked a long time on to get this to work, if that's even possible.

I think we need to bring Dr. House in on this one. He could find a way to allow us to move our arms.

Seriously, I could understand that with a highly compressed, constant amplitude sound that a speaker may distort on the high notes almost if not just as much as on the low notes. What I can't understand is why any guitar speaker would completely cease to function on the highest notes on the fret board yet work just fine (and sound great) on low notes and chords. That's a mighty odd speaker. Perhaps some high frequency de-emphasis on the breakup would help if that's possible with the DSP.

Oh well, I'm getting some great sounds in any event - I just won't be using the Speaker Drive. I'm not into totally uncompressed clean sounds.
 
barhrecords said:
5.07, AxeEdit 273
Click to expand...

Same here, but I'm only using AxeEdit to create patches. I save them in the system exclusive librarian of Sonar since the last time I used AxeEdit to try to manipulate patches it did some strange things and I lost a patch. It was probably my fault, but without clearly understanding the intricacies of AxeEdit I prefer to use Sonar to save my patches. I'm not blaming AxeEdit, I blaming my ignorance concerning how to properly use it.

Your patch won't change the fact that the Speaker Drive parameter can't be used effectively with high gain or highly compressed clean patches. It is what it is. Not a complaint, just an objective observation. It's simply something a lot of users won't be able to use. No big deal.
 
Search4Tone said:
Same here, but I'm only using AxeEdit to create patches. I save them in the system exclusive librarian of Sonar since the last time I used AxeEdit to try to manipulate patches it did some strange things and I lost a patch. It was probably my fault, but without clearly understanding the intricacies of AxeEdit I prefer to use Sonar to save my patches. I'm not blaming AxeEdit, I blaming my ignorance concerning how to properly use it.

Your patch won't change the fact that the Speaker Drive parameter can't be used effectively with high gain or highly compressed clean patches. It is what it is. Not a complaint, just an objective observation. It's simply something a lot of users won't be able to use. No big deal.
Click to expand...

No worries :)

I'm sure I don't have as much experience with tube amps doing A/B like you are Trazan do.

Richard
 
barhrecords said:
No worries :)

I'm sure I don't have as much experience with tube amps doing A/B like you are Trazan do.

Richard
Click to expand...

NOTE: (added so you won't have to read any further unless you want a workaround for this issue. It's not a serious issue but those who want to use speaker distortion I think would benefit from this thread. Those who don't can skip it. Fractal would be better off adding new features to the next firmware update than trying to improve this, at least at this point in time IMO).

In addition to the high note drop outs, there is a fundamental flaw in the sequence of the controls in the amp block, and that is the location of the Speaker Drive in relation to the location of the graphic EQ in the amp block. Graphic EQs found on amps (those that have them which admittedly are few, but nevertheless) are ALWAYS before the speaker (as well as the power amp), NOT after the speaker. It was a mistake to place the Speaker Drive before the graphic EQ in the amp block. This would NEVER occur in the real world. I don't see how anyone could possibly argue with that.

Suffice to say the Speaker Drive does not even remotely behave like a real speaker on highly distorted high gain tones and heavily compressed clean tones, and the recommended solution for the drop outs caused by playing high notes (as demonstrated in the sample recording) is to reduce the level of the Speaker Drive until the high notes no longer cause the signal to drop out so that the Speaker Drive has no effect on the tone (which renders it useless in these cases).

From the creator of the AXE-FX II, to anticipate the doctor's response to the patient: "Don't move your arm (Speaker Drive) like that". Forget about the cause of the pain and the possibility something is wrong with your arm (Speaker Drive).

Where's Dr. House?

All joking aside, the behavior of the SPKR DRIVE is a relatively minor issue for me, but the casual dismissal of the concerns isn't what I would expect from a company that's genuinely serious about making its product the best it can possibly be. I thought that was the design philosophy. Apparently I was wrong. No big deal. It's still a great product, with only a few acceptable flaws.

I can live with either not moving my arm or accepting the pain from doing so. I'm certain that's the same advice Dr. House would give any patient. Maybe a few Vicodin would cover up the problem. Can Fractal ship us some Vicodin?
 
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My experience is only with my modest amp collection, early 80's Fender Princeton, 60's Fender Blonde Bassman, 70's Fender Dual Showman, 70's Fender Silverface Twin, Roland JC110, 80's Marshall JCM 800, Marshall Plexi Reissue modded by David Bray (recently sold :(), Bogner Shiva Combo, various vintage and modern closed and open back enclosures and speakers.

The Marshall's are mid gainers but the only ones I've ever played dimed.

The speaker drive in small doses approximates some of the kerang my JCM 800 delivers.

But like you, I don't use speaker drive in my presets. My entire approach is really to adjust as little as possible. That gives me the best tone with the least effort.

Richard
 
I don't mean to be contentious, I was being overly sarcastic in my previous post. Don't take my post that seriously - half of it was in jest. Life is short and I like to stir the pot sometimes :razz

Removed redundant information covered below.
 
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Workaround for Speaker Drive Issue

There's an easy way (it consumes an amp block and forces your main amp into low res) to make the Speaker Drive behave much more like a real speaker, in fact, actually better than a real speaker because you can custom tailor the amount of breakup for each "part" of the neck and keep the low notes from causing excessive distortion before the mid notes distort the speaker, as well as eliminate the complete dropouts the highest notes cause.

The patch linked to below shows how. The first amp is your main amp - substitute any model you'd like. The second amp block does nothing but create speaker distortion and is set to have as little effect on the tone as possible - you should hear very little difference whether its bypassed or not when its Speaker Drive control is set to minimum. In the state it's in it's set to maximum and you will hear large amounts of speaker breakup.

The two GEQs before and after the second amp block control how much of each frequency causes speaker breakup. First, notice that 1K-4K are cut full to prevent the dropouts from occurring when the Speaker Drive is cranked hard. The only problem I haven't been able to address is getting the high notes to distort before they cause dropouts, but I see this as no big deal since they don't really cause guitar speakers to break up much anyway - this most important issue to me is to stop them from preventing more distortion from the low notes, and this workaround solves this issue.

The rest of the curve was contoured to keep the low notes from creating too much breakup and allow the mid notes to have an effect. The way this behaves is going to be a function of your main amp block and your EQ.

Notice the 2 GEQs are complementary (they are the inverse of one another). Turning both off or on together should have no effect on the sound, similar to the unity gain (overall) clean second amp block.

Load the patch, go into the second amp block and turn the Speaker Drive all the way down. The sound cleans up and the speaker distortion goes away. Crank it all the way up again and listen to how much distortion is available. Now test the high notes for dropouts. There should be none since the first GEQ cuts the fundamental tones of the high notes and the second GEQ corrects for the actions of the first.

After turning the Speaker Drive in the second amp block all the way down, go to the first (main) amp block and turn its Speaker Drive control all the way up. You won't get nearly as much speaker distortion, and you'll get drop outs on the high notes.

The bottom line is if you want a LOT of speaker distortion and you want to be able to have a lot of control over it, use a second amp block and a pre and post EQ to tailor it to your taste.

Although I think the Speaker Drive isn't what it should be, I'd MUCH rather have new features (profiling) than have Fractal waste time trying to improve something I would only use as a special effect, and then rarely.

Unfortunately my FTP is down so I'll post the patch tomorrow which should clearly demonstrate the above.

Thanks.

It's back up:

http://www.rockrollband.com/SpeakerDrive.syx
 
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Yep, that's a workaround, Search4Tone. It's not something I'd use every day either, but if it's an easy fix for Fractal I'd appreciate if the high frequencies didn't cause those funny dropouts! 8)
 
Trazan said:
Yep, that's a workaround, Search4Tone. It's not something I'd use every day either, but if it's an easy fix for Fractal I'd appreciate if the high frequencies didn't cause those funny dropouts! 8)
Click to expand...

I'm glad someone agrees. Until the problem with the high notes causing almost complete dropouts is fixed, I consider it a bug, not an imperfection. I would still rather have Cliff work on new features and fix this later since we can work around it.

In addition to the high note drop outs, there is a fundamental flaw in the sequence of the controls in the amp block, and that is the location of the Speaker Drive in relation to the location of the graphic EQ in the amp block. Graphic EQs found on amps (those that have them which admittedly are few, but nevertheless) are ALWAYS before the speaker (as well as the power amp), NOT after the speaker. It was a mistake to place the Speaker Drive before the graphic EQ in the amp block. This would NEVER occur in the real world. I don't see how anyone could possibly argue with that (although I have a feeling someone probably will).

A simple way to correct most of the problem with the Speaker Drive would be to place its control AFTER the graphic EQ that's in the amp block. Unfortunately it's PRE-EQ, not post, so the speaker drive isn't "seeing" the output of the amp block and power amp LIKE IT WOULD IN THE REAL WORLD, it sees the signal BEFORE the GEQ in the amp block, which makes no sense to me, since again, in the real world the real speaker would be fed the signal from the power amp post the GEQ in the amp block.

One way to make this parameter extremely useful and highly controllable IMHO would be to make it a separate block and put a "sensitivity EQ" control in the block, perhaps a 5 band from 100Hz to 2kHz, with the top and bottom bands being shelving type controls (I found cutting the 31Hz and the 63Hz control for some sounds helped keep the low E from causing too much distortion) and again, making the EQ a "sensitivity to distortion control", NOT an EQ in the actual signal chain, but a sidechain type of control. This way you could tailor the speaker breakup to behave the way you wanted it to rather than (admittedly more realistically) being dependent on the EQ of the output of the amp block (which it isn't right now but should be).

That's enough of this for me. BTW, the patch was developed using a lead humbucker, so if you want to listen to the demo as intended use a lead (bridge position) humbucker.

Thanks for listening at least. This control could be SO much better than it is, and it would be a cool effect, and it is, but only with the workaround above IMO.
 
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