W/D/W Routing Templete?

elchampion

elchampion

Inspired
I've searched around to find out how people are routing the Axe II in this config, but its taking too long to find the nuggets. So this is what I have:

AxeII to use for effects only
Fender Super Sonic
Matrix GT800FX
2 EV 12L 1x12 cabs

How do I wire this up to use in W/D/W rig and what does the grid look like?

I've been using the 4CM with the super sonic 22 and it sounds awesome! I like the consistency of my tone using the amp live with the Axe for only effects. I figured since I have the Matrix to try to see what a W/D/W rig sounds like but have no clue how to do it. I appreciate your help!! If you could post a screen shot of the Axe Edit grid or post a template patch that would help me out a lot in learning how to do this.

Cheers!!
 
Super Sonic Efx loop --> Axe Fx --> Matrix --> EVs

Use a Y cable if necessary to return a signal to the RETURN of the Fender.
 
You could also use the pre out on the ss to the axe. Remember to use the back panel input and set it for line level. Your grid would be the same minus amp sims.
 
Thanks guys for your help!! I'm a total Noob when comes to this stuff. So I'm going to diagram what I think you meant (@luke):

SS FX loop RTN --> Axe OUT2 L
SS FX loop SEND --> Axe Input2 L
AXE OUT1 L --> Matrix IN A
AXE OUT1 R --> Matrix IN B
Matrix Outs to EVs

Do I plug my guitar in front of the Amp or AXE?

Thanks again can't wait to try this when I get home tonight!
 
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Think you'd better switch Axe in/out 2 L. You've got inputs connected to inputs and outputs to outputs now.
 
It should be a variation of the 4CM Template preset 382 in V5 bank C.

I'm assuming the Matrix amp and the two EV speakers are for the AxeFx II effects only, the "W/W" or dual mono wet channels and the Fender amp is the "D" or dry channel?

So for the D (dry) going to your Fender, you can put the Axe in front of the amp vs. in the loop? Because the Fender is the dry channel I'm not sure what I would do in the Fender efx loop?

The 4CM Template has a Drive and Phaser before the FX Loop block and Reverb and Delay after.

So in this example you would be putting Phaser and Drive into the front input of the Fender and the Reverb and Delay into the Matrix.

The basic idea is to use the FX Loop block to split the signal before the reverb and delay; this is the "D" or dry signal.

D (Dry) channel:

Guitar -> AxeFx front input
Axe Out 2 (FX Send pre reverb delay)-> Fender front input

W/W (dual mono wet) channels:

Axe Out 1 L -> Matrix Ch 1 -> EV cab 1
Axe Out 1 R -> Matrix Ch 2 -> EV cab 2

Richard
 
Thanks Barthrecords! That makes sense. The only thing is that the Matrix will be receiving a signal without the amp sound which I'd have to see if I like or not. This might be the reason to use the FX loop of the amp.
 
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elchampion said:
The only thing is that the Matrix will be receiving a signal without the amp sound which I'd have to see if I like or not. This might be the reason to use the FX loop of the amp.
Click to expand...

If it were me, I would put an amp block after the FX Loop block and use that vs. a return from the Fender for the W/W channels.
 
barhrecords said:
If it were me, I would put an amp block after the FX Loop block and use that vs. a return from the Fender for the W/W channels.
Click to expand...
Yeah thats another solution. I'm reading more and more about the W/D/W rig, and beginning to understand it a little. We'll see tonight! Thanks for taking time and posting!
 
Assuming the Fender fx send is usable without breaking the internal signal path to power section, you could connect that to Axe-FX In 2L to use as the wet tone source. The only change from 4CM cabling would be Out 1 L/R to Matrix instead of Out 1 L to Fender fx return. Send the FXL block output through effects to get the W/W signal at Out 1 L/R. You might still want to try a drive or amp block as the first thing after FXL, for extra drive/compression like a power amp sim would add.

I'll post some routing examples in an hour or two. A routing that gets the sound of series fx (minus the actual dry sound) will be different than one for parallel effects or anything you'd have to do in a stereo/mono setup.
 
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Parallel fx:

If you had a couple effects like delay/reverb in parallel at 100% mix in a stereo or mono setup, like this:

wdw1.jpg


It's easy to take the dry sound out for W/W by removing its path to output:

wdw2.jpg


_________________________

Series fx:

With a series placement like this, stereo/mono rig, FX mix % set to taste:

wdw3.jpg


You get delay & reverb on the dry sound, plus reverb on the delay repeats. To get all that without the dry sound (or having to use the enhancer trick mentioned later), you need to run both effects at 100% mix--block levels will determine effect mix--and route like this:

wdw4.jpg


Row 1 supplies dry signal to each block. Row 3 collects the 100% wet sound from each block. The delay also needs a connection to reverb in order to have reverb on the delay repeats. Use one of the "mute" bypass modes for any effect you want to bypass, unless you want to actually send some dry signal to the wet cabs when bypassing certain effects.

If you have more than 2 effects in series, you need to start making connections from row 3 to row 2 to get the complete sound to each effect. Here the shunt below delay is 100% wet chorus sound, and the reverb wouldn't be fed any chorus sound without connecting from that shunt:

wdw5.jpg


Another effect in series would look like this: http://img824.imageshack.us/img824/4292/wdw6.jpg

An alternate way to remove dry signal after series fx is through phase cancellation:

http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/8038/wdw7.jpg

Set enhancer width to 0 and phase reverse both channels. (This ability is currently removed from the Axe II enhancer; it might be possible to use a flanger instead.) Use Mute FX In or Mute FX Out bypass mode for all effects then bypass them all just to hear the dry sound clearly, and adjust the level of one (last one in the chain is fine) until the dry sound is removed. Use output mixer to set overall wet level. This won't end up sounding any different from the other method, BTW. You'd just be dialing some mix % instead of total level for each block. Any time you change a mix % you'd have to find the proper level to cancel the dry again, so this approach might be more work if you're testing what a little more or less mix of something like chorus sounds like. With delay/reverb/pitch you can start with the input gain at something like 50% to leave room for more/less effect without having to tweak other levels.
 
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I'd just try the SS's Preamp Out to AFX, and AFX Out 1 L/R to W/W amps.

Put an amp block with Tube Pre set pretty clean (or...I'm not sure if it's possible to get some power amp squish from the Tube Pre sim...?), a speaker sim and then the desired efx 100% wet.
 
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Bakerman You are the MAN!! Thanks so much for your excellent explanations! It sounds marvelous!! The only issue I'm experiencing is HISS, I've read others using the 4CM to be having the same issue. The wet Effects in Parallel sounds awesome to me. Its great having all these options! Thanks again, I hope others find this useful!
 
Bakerman said:
Set enhancer width to 0 and phase reverse both channels. (This ability is currently removed from the Axe II enhancer
Click to expand...

I think this warrants a wishlist post :-(
I was going to ask Cliff about this.
 
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I'm considering having a WDW option to switch the stereo wet part of the delays and modulations through into two further channels hard-panned left and right into the FOH for Intros and solos. I had this working really well with my old pedalboard using two Lehle switches, a mixer and a splitter - but it was huge and heavy...

I'm trying to do the same thing without the external switching system - triggering it using a single IA switch on the MFC.

I'm thinking to have Output 2 A running to a single onstage EVM with everything in it as the normal backline feed, with the FOH as usual from Output 1 L&R; then use a software mixer to switch the delay/modulations into Output 1 L&R. I haven't thought this through properly yet, but if Output 2 was mono - the same summed signal coming from A and B, then Output 2 B could be the triphonic dry feed to FOH.... It would need to have cab emulation added, which would alter the backline sound while the triphonic effect was in use. (The switched modulations being folded back from the desk, or maybe from Output1A unbalanced to a second backline cabinet....)

On a small stage, having a second cabinet the other side of the drummer, the delays and modulations could be switched by the mixer to the second cabinet, which would normally be mute – running from Output 1 summed L&R. This would be a two-channel system when there’s no guitar going into the PA, for activation as a special effect ….

How does this sound to the experts?
 
If you don't need more than 4 unique output channels it's usually possible with the Axe, and you could have cab sim on only one Out 2 channel assuming enough CPU% and 2nd cab block available, but I'm not sure what the goal is from your description. Are you wanting to run effects in mono most of the time through FOH, then switch to stereo? Or leave the wet portion of the sound unchanged through FOH, but cut the usual dry inclusion and switch to a separate dry output for some reason (monitor feed, FOH mixing decisions, center channel of actual L/C/R FOH system)?
 
Hey Bakerman - thanks for answering. I'd normally be running in mono - to FOH and backline. My goal is to use an IA switch on the MFC to change that to WDW as a special effect for Intros and Solos - going out over the FOH.

On stage (and in small venues with no DI'd guitar), I thought I'd avoid the stereo fall-out problem by when i deploy the special effect, sending all the Wet to a second (normally mute) cabinet the other side of the drummer, with the dry coming from my backline cab. In smaller venues, I'd sometimes also send the wet in stereo to the PA (this was a three-piece band, so I was needing to fill a lot of space).

I found with the analogue rig I built a couple of years ago, that having one channel on the PA for dry and the two either side for wet, panned hard left and right, sounded really great. Running the Axe in just stereo over the FOH might achieve this if all the patches are constructed so that the dry is always centred and the stereo modulation can be hard panned L&R in the patch itself. That night be an elegant method of avoiding having to use three channels. But my experience (even using the brilliant Eventide stomps which allowed you to mix wet and dry), was to separate the dry from the wet even though they were going to be re-mixed in the PA. The sound guy's response was always a bit reluctant until he got the two wet channels panned and the dry centred - and them all balanced properly, then it really shone. It was always better if there's different sound to the wet as if from another type of amplifier, plus the dry can be eq'd differently too.

Hope I'm making sense here!
 
More clear now--2 channels to FOH would be enough if you don't mind giving up the separate dry send for them to work with. The toggle could be a volume block that sums to mono or copies one side to both channels. Sometimes more switching might be useful for things like getting one side of a chorus and both sides of a ping-pong delay into the mono version. Anything else like muting/unmuting certain things in certain channels can usually be handled by mixer/volume/filter blocks.
 
Bakerman said:
More clear now--2 channels to FOH would be enough if you don't mind giving up the separate dry send for them to work with. The toggle could be a volume block that sums to mono or copies one side to both channels. Sometimes more switching might be useful for things like getting one side of a chorus and both sides of a ping-pong delay into the mono version. Anything else like muting/unmuting certain things in certain channels can usually be handled by mixer/volume/filter blocks.
Click to expand...

Many thanks Bakerman.
 
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