[Video] Using a (free) LUFS meter to loudness match amps and presets

[FarleyUK]

Some of my patches that were -1.8 ish prior to FW upgrade went over 0 db on the builtin meter after upgrade.. I haven't checked or fixed all yet, but my main patches needed adjusting.

Eric

Interesting... Glad it wasn't all in my mind!

 

[Glenn DeLaune]

This a great concept and when you're playing alone yes this sort of level match would work. However, I've found that in a live setting, with a full band in a live mix when you take into account room ambiance and stage volume I think you'll find that your gainier sounds will need to come up at least by 3 db more that any type of clean sound. This just has to do with the way the gain of the sound get's lost in the mix. Clean sounds have a much more focused sound therefore they cut through a mix much more than a sound with gain. At least that's my experience. Anybody want to add to this or do you agree?? Also, a good tip is this, a little mid boost will give the listener the perception of loudness when in fact they're only hearing the mid frequencies cutting through a cluttered mix so in the audience it sounds louder.

 

[Tplesko]

just have out 1 on full (so when you come back to do it again in the future, you'll know where to set it). you don't have to aim for any specific value. it's the difference between the values you choose for clean, rhythm and lead that are important. the loudest patch you have sets the upper limit. my values are -20 for clean, -17 for dirty rhythm and -13 to -14 for lead (actually 3.5db difference). if you aim for about 3db you should be good to go.

Wow I just posted a question on this and you’ve answered half of it - yes, clean tones seem a bit louder (as you say about 3 dB) than a gain tone. But what about acoustic simulated tones using an electric guitar? I find these to be a bit softer than a gain tone, so I think I am going to up those about 3 dB from the gain tones tones. So mine will look like this - my rhythm gain tones are the middle, clean are -3db, acoustic are about +3db and leads also about +3db. Does that sound reasonable to you? Thx in advance Simeon!

 

[Rex]

This a great concept and when you're playing alone yes this sort of level match would work. However, I've found that in a live setting, with a full band in a live mix when you take into account room ambiance and stage volume I think you'll find that your gainier sounds will need to come up at least by 3 db more that any type of clean sound. This just has to do with the way the gain of the sound get's lost in the mix. Clean sounds have a much more focused sound therefore they cut through a mix much more than a sound with gain. At least that's my experience. Anybody want to add to this or do you agree?? Also, a good tip is this, a little mid boost will give the listener the perception of loudness when in fact they're only hearing the mid frequencies cutting through a cluttered mix so in the audience it sounds louder.

Yep. Mid boost helps you cut through.

I use the VU meters to rough in my levels. Starting there keeps me from getting anywhere near clipping at the output. But I'd sure as heck better revisit and fine-tune those levels before the gig starts.

 

[Smittefar]

This a great concept and when you're playing alone yes this sort of level match would work. However, I've found that in a live setting, with a full band in a live mix when you take into account room ambiance and stage volume I think you'll find that your gainier sounds will need to come up at least by 3 db more that any type of clean sound. This just has to do with the way the gain of the sound get's lost in the mix. Clean sounds have a much more focused sound therefore they cut through a mix much more than a sound with gain. At least that's my experience. Anybody want to add to this or do you agree?? Also, a good tip is this, a little mid boost will give the listener the perception of loudness when in fact they're only hearing the mid frequencies cutting through a cluttered mix so in the audience it sounds louder.

I agree completely. And also, different songs require different levels. Sometimes a distorted guitar needs to be at the front, dry and in your face, but other times it might need to be an almost ambient carpet of sound in the background.

 

[Rex]

I agree completely. And also, different songs require different levels. Sometimes a distorted guitar needs to be at the front, dry and in your face, but other times it might need to be an almost ambient carpet of sound in the background.

I think that's the part of leveling that many people forget about—the role of the sound in the song.

 

[simeon]

Wow I just posted a question on this and you’ve answered half of it - yes, clean tones seem a bit louder (as you say about 3 dB) than a gain tone. But what about acoustic simulated tones using an electric guitar? I find these to be a bit softer than a gain tone, so I think I am going to up those about 3 dB from the gain tones tones. So mine will look like this - my rhythm gain tones are the middle, clean are -3db, acoustic are about +3db and leads also about +3db. Does that sound reasonable to you? Thx in advance Simeon!

your acoustic will be too loud. if you're strumming and you want it to sit back in the mix, then they'll need to be about -4db from your gain tone. i can't tell you what levels to set them at definitively, because it'll depend on your playing style and what the rest of the band is doing when you use these sounds. i would say having cc35 and cc36 available on your pedalboard so you can adjust scene volume on the fly is the quickest and easiest way to get everything fine tuned

 

[mwd]

Gotta’ be careful using LUFS to level presets. Simeon brings up a good point. We use LUFS to level the backing track to keep us in check song to song. Given than I want a backing track at -19 LUFS if it contains a lot of acoustic work -19 LUFS will be too loud. If it is a kick butt rock tune with crunch or sear it will be too quiet.

We finally found the perfect way to balance our presets and guitars with our X32 mixer. We just bring the level to the top green bar (-18db) for each guitar player individually. In our case when you pull in a -19 LUFS back track and sum it with a live vocal that rides 2db hotter and 2 live guitars at -18db your source summed mix output is around -10 LUFS or the equivalent of a hot CD. Fairly hot signal, no clip. Also helps in the gain stage of noisy IEM systems like Sennheiser.

Consider LUFS a ballpark tool. If you do use it to level presets, since it measures over a slice of time, it would be good to use a looper that plays the exact same phrase or otherwise you might be spinning your wheels. Measure with a meter check it with your ears and don't trust either alone.

 

[Tplesko]

your acoustic will be too loud. if you're strumming and you want it to sit back in the mix, then they'll need to be about -4db from your gain tone. i can't tell you what levels to set them at definitively, because it'll depend on your playing style and what the rest of the band is doing when you use these sounds. i would say having cc35 and cc36 available on your pedalboard so you can adjust scene volume on the fly is the quickest and easiest way to get everything fine tuned

Yep, thanks Simeon, when I have it even with gain it falls back into the mix and my band mates complain they cannot here my playing, so put it up a few dB. I have an 85%-100% volume pedal at the end of these patches to adjust, just as you suggest. Thanks again!

 

[simeon]

I have an 85%-100% volume pedal at the end of these patches to adjust, just as you suggest. Thanks again!

i suggested no such thing. i suggested you have cc35 and cc36 on two buttons. these raise or lower the level of the current scene by 1db and save the patch.

 

[Smittefar]

I believe, you need external pedals to do that on the AX8. I don't think (but I am not sure) that the buttons on the unit can be assigned to CCs

 

[simeon]

well that's a bit pants, isn't it

to be honest, i didn't realise we were in an AX8 forum. i should stop myself commenting on these threads, it just gets confusing (for me)

 

[Smittefar]

Please don't stop - you always bring valuable info

You just inspired me to figure out, how I could trigger CC35 and CC36 from SetListMaker, which I already use to select presets. That might be much easier than and definitely faster than adjusting on the unit

 

[simeon]

levelling your patches in a live environment is the most accurate and reliable way to do it. you can then use a lufs meter to measure where you are and use that as a baseline for new patches. the figures i use for levelling on my lufs meter were derived from tweaking my patches live. even if you have to go out and buy a two button momentary footswitch to do it...it's well worth it, imo

 

[Tplesko]

levelling your patches in a live environment is the most accurate and reliable way to do it. you can then use a lufs meter to measure where you are and use that as a baseline for new patches. the figures i use for levelling on my lufs meter were derived from tweaking my patches live. even if you have to go out and buy a two button momentary footswitch to do it...it's well worth it, imo

Yep...I got you now. Maybe I’ll do that very thing and get a couple of momentary switches....thx again Simeon.

 

[mwd]

... even if you have to go out and buy a two button momentary footswitch to do it...it's well worth it, imo

...truth. Boss FS-6 is a rock solid 2 button footswitch that pulls this off nicely. Not having to open the preset, or an editor, or do save functions, makes this an easy task.

 

[Smittefar]

Thanks for the heads-up - I will definitely get an FS-6 then

 

[Scott Peterson]

Pretty interesting stuff - but IMHO the meters on the DAW stuff is great for recording. For live work, I personally use the VU meters on the AX8 (or Axe-FXII) to do the same thing and the key as noted in the OP is the relative volumes, *not* the peaks. Glen posted in the thread that his cleans are way louder than his gain stuff and he needs to set the gain/dirt presets louder, I primarily play humbucker loaded PRS guitars and find the opposite true. I've been doing the relative output leveling approach (using an actual db meter in the past) and really just use the unit VU meters the past couple of years. I'm usually pretty happy with the results for both my clients I work for and my own stuff. I do some blocking of low-frequency stuff (generally 80hz with a -12db roll off; also for full completeness of sharing, I do a high cut at 8-10kHz at the same time in the same block) in the cab block; the low frequencies make doing this process a bit hit and miss; doing that low cut makes it far more consistent for live work. There's a post up here about using a TRS cable instead of an XLR; that's fine for studio work but live I MUCH prefer XLR due to the reality of having to run to the stage snake or mixer. Just reality.

 

[simeon]

personally, i find the vu meters on the axe a bit quick. i prefer using a meter with about a 3 seconds average, so the peaks and troughs are smoothed out. just makes it easier to read if you're going for a specific value
i should also mention that when measuring clean sounds, it does depend on how and what you play. they're much more dynamic than gainy sounds, so whatever you play when measuring, try to be really even and consistent across all your clean patches.

 

[Scott Peterson]

personally, i find the vu meters on the axe a bit quick. i prefer using a meter with about a 3 seconds average, so the peaks and troughs are smoothed out. just makes it easier to read if you're going for a specific value
i should also mention that when measuring clean sounds, it does depend on how and what you play. they're much more dynamic than gainy sounds, so whatever you play when measuring, try to be really even and consistent across all your clean patches.

Agree 100%. When I watch the meters, I look for where they hit on average over time. As noted, I used to do this process with a db meter and would set it to C weighted slow response for exactly the reasons you note.