v10 Presets Seem Harsh to Me - Help?

zenkick

zenkick

Inspired
Part of my process after upgrading my firmware is to audition the factory presets, assuming a release included them. I then take copious notes, identify any new amps I may want to create new presets from, and integrate what I've learned into my modest collection of presets. I've been doing this since v5.

I use a beat-down 90's strat with Kinman Woodstock's as my go to for stepping through the presets (I'm always comparing apples to apples) and quickly checking new amps, and either my headphones or my Mackie HR824's for listening, depending on what time of day it is. I'll typically walk through all pickup combinations on each patch.

With each major iteration, I've noticed solid improvements with the factory patches. For me, v9 was the best so far.

v10 on the other hand is very painful to my ears (in my headphones and Mackies.) To me most patches seem very piercing and harsh -- like the presence is cranked to 11 on everything, and there is a mid peak in the EQ or something. The patches *look* fine though.

With all the accolades and bow-downs regarding the new release, I'm wondering if I'm doing something wrong, or if something is wrong with my unit. I've only seen a couple mentions in the plethora of v10 posts of people reporting similar displeasure with the v10 presets -- so I'm hopeful it's *something* on my end. I've only seen one user with a possible hardware issue rendering his unit without audio ("bad data storage for MIMIC" or the like.)

I've tried re-installing the firmware with and without the bot a few times now, and reloading the v10 patches with and without axe edit a few times. I've reset my system settings as well. I've tried changing the global modeling version, too (although that's counter to my point.) All to no avail - I have the same harsh sounding results. My next step is to backup and wipe all my user cabs with the reset sysex floating around here, although I doubt that'll have any effect.

Now I know I can go back to v9, but I'm not at that decision point yet. I'm kind of hung up on "why the hell can't *I* hear how good v10 is" and be able to gush about it. I just can't get past that. Maybe it's my ocd, maybe it's my engineering background -- who the hell knows, it's my hangup.

Hopefully others can shed some sane and constructive thoughts on this.
 
Strange. I went through the new factory presets yesterday and I found most to be rather dark (as they have always been to me). FWIW, I used my Godin, which is quite bright.

I can't really advise you as you named all options (reinstalling fw, presets, system reset).

Have you tried other guitars, cables, etc?
 
You can turn MIMIC off, which to my ears smooths out the tone.

I think there is an ear adjustment though. When 9 came out, I was used to 8 and thought it was harsh. I got used to it and dialed some tones I loved. Now that 10 is out, I notice something similar, but I'm learning to dial it to my liking. With the option to turn MIMIC on/off and selectable algorithms for FW7-10, Cliff has really given you all the tools and options to get what you're looking for.

Now if there was a MIMIC 'mix' control!
 
couple of thoughts:

- you need to dial the presets into your monitoring system/s / backline
- no two FRFR systems / studio monitors are the same
it seems to me the FRFR is more a design approach than an actual reality
so if one FW fits your monitoring better than another then it's more likely good fortune
- rather than rely on factory presets, to get the best out of the Axe creating your own presets is always the optimum approach..
 
Sebastian said:
Strange. I went through the new factory presets yesterday and I found most to be rather dark (as they have always been to me). FWIW, I used my Godin, which is quite bright.

I can't really advise you as you named all options (reinstalling fw, presets, system reset).

Have you tried other guitars, cables, etc?
Click to expand...


Mine are dark as well. On some presets I've actually had to go to the EQ and bump it up a tad in the higher freqs.
 
Your experience exactly mirrors mine. I only played around for an hour though. I had to turn off the bright switch on pretty much everything and jack the presence down but the tone still sounded very not there to me.

Initially I tried updating with the old AE but it froze in mid transfer so I used the bot. Was wondering if that somehow screwed things up. This was with using new factory presets.
 
sheky said:
Your experience exactly mirrors mine. I only played around for an hour though. I had to turn off the bright switch on pretty much everything and jack the presence down but the tone still sounded very not there to me.

Initially I tried updating with the old AE but it froze in mid transfer so I used the bot. Was wondering if that somehow screwed things up. This was with using new factory presets.
Click to expand...

another thing to try is a different cab IR
things that may not have been great matches prior to 10 may be superb now...

my first set of FW10 experiments will be focusing on new amp/cab combinations...

never forget that your tone is both amp and cab...
and that's before you start playing with EQ
 
My global settings are as expected.

I really don't want to turn new features off (MIMIC), as that just messes with my troubleshooting mindset and defeats the purpose, I think. (Edit: I just tried turning MIMIC off on a couple of patches, and it mostly de-harshed it for my ears -- so that's a good step. [Edit edit: Actually it wasn't much of a change, I had my tone knob cranked down from previous tests.])

I use the same guitar, same cable, same audio path for all my preset auditioning after a new release drop. That way my comparison is always the same to my ears. (But when I play I use many different guitars, depending on my mood and my chosen preset.)

Clarky, yes - my intent is to dial in my own existing patches. I've just not gotten past the "why does v10 presets sound so bad to *me*" while auditioning the new goodies, which is part of my process before tweaking mine, and wanted to hear if others had any ideas or experienced the same.

jamn4jc, I've been watching that thread, as well.

I'm sure I'll capitulate soon enough and just move on to working on re-tweaking my patches -- factory presets be damned.

Appreciate the responses so far, folks!
 
zenkick said:
I use the same guitar, same cable, same audio path for all my preset auditioning after a new release drop. That way my comparison is always the same to my ears.
Click to expand...

Understood. My suggestion was purely for troubleshooting reasons.
 
Sebastian said:
Understood. My suggestion was purely for troubleshooting reasons.
Click to expand...

Oh I mis-read you. Yes, my initial troubleshooting was to grab my backup strat as that was quicker than reverting-- same issue.

I then reverted to v9 and v9 presets, no harshness.

Then I upgraded again (well a few different times and ways - lol). This is where I'm at now...
 
zenkick said:
Clarky, yes - my intent is to dial in my own existing patches. I've just not gotten past the "why does v10 presets sound so bad to *me*" while auditioning the new goodies, which is part of my process before tweaking mine, and wanted to hear if others had any ideas or experienced the same.
Click to expand...

when you think about this the answer is actually quite obvious...
your presets were not dialled in at 10
and the new factories were...
kinda makes sense don't it...

so I'll bet that after a little experimentation and time you'll be back in "holy sht I love this" space...
best o' luck t'ya
 
Use a peaking filer w/ a high q filter (sweep the freq) to find out where the harshness is by accentuating it. Start before the amp, then move it post amp. my guess in your case it will be worse before the amp. eq before or after the amp will result in different results, especially with driven tones.

you can either cut that freq with eq or find out what in the amp block is causing the freq you do not desire.

things that help in the amp block

If the bright switch is on - bright cap values - lower them or turn off bright

lower drive
presence, treble lower (or lower one raise the other to compensate)
Lower dynamic presence
adjust pick attack up
lowering triode plate freq
lower power amp hicut
lower hicut parameter
adjust character

Before you do all that though, just try different cabs.
 
I have been enjoying V10 (it has a lovely chewyness to it, and is super responsive), but generally speaking it certainly seems to be brighter than V9. I have been lowering the hi cut to 3-6 kHz on most amps, and often reducing treble and power amp hi cut. On amps with no negative feedback I have been putting the 'presence' hi cut as high as 9, and only on a few amps presence or bright switches. This is all with a dark sounding, hollowbody guitar (only tried the one axe so far). V10 seems to require more tweaking than V9, but it sure does sound and feel fantastic. It really brings my guitar to life!
 
When I loaded up firmware 10, I made a deliberate choice to break with the past. I loaded the firmware, factory presets, used the system wipe file that was posted, and even reset my MFC. It sounds like more work that way....but maybe not. Fw10 is much quicker and easier to dial in. I really have to try hard to get a bad sound out of it--well, except for my playing, naturally. It may not be for everybody but it worked for me.
 
Let me try and give you a different perspective.

I only switched to the AXE maybe 8 weeks ago and did pretty much 6 straight gigs with it. I don't approach what I do from a home or studio monitoring POV -- but from playing live "old school style" (guitar/amp) no FOH (not offered in clubs I play) etc. Currently I use a Matrix GT1000FX amp to drive a passive Matrix Q12.

I thought FW9 sounded fantastic (especially for someone that did not transition into digital through years of playing modeling gear).


FW10 is completely different.

the amp state not only sounds more the real thing but behaves to its surroundings more like an analog amp.

Case in point (static pops from guitar, noise etc).

In the room where I practice -- when I would plug in any of my real amps (vintage twin/bandmaster etc) I would get a little of that (it can at times be little annoying but the amp is letting you know it is reading the room).

Guess what -- with FW10 the amps in the Axe are "reading" and reacting to the room in a similar manner.

It is freak'n amazing as far as I am concerned how sensitive FW10 amp models are.

So for me the tone and feel of FW10 are way more familiar to me than FW9 simply because (I think) I only switched to digital from analog a few weeks ago and using the same amps in the Axe as I did before I started using the Axe.

For me it is actually much easier to dial in the amps in the Axe now because they seem to respond to the environment in a very analog way (which I am used to).

For me, really nothing more is needed to EQ the amps other than adjusting the B/M/T/P dials on the amps (like you would with a real amp).
 
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Does anyone have the issue where the factory "clean" presets all sound crunchy? Like early AC/DC crunchy? The crunch patches like the Euro Blue are really distorted.

I'm using Seth Lover pickups, the input gain on the Axe doesn't hit the red unless I really strum hard, and my amplification system consists of both an Atomic CLR, and a Matrix GT800FX into an EVM12L (I modify a patch to use FXL to route 1 signal with cab and 1 without). I updated the firmware on the Axe, did a factory reset, and when checking my old patches I double-click bypass when in Amp Edit mode and then save.

For reference, on the factory Double Verb, I dialed the drive down from factory 4.99 to 1.25 to get a clean-on-edge-of-breakup sound. (also needed to take amp level up from -10.6 to 2.7 to make it loud enough).

I'm wondering if something is wrong with my Axe. I didn't have this problem until I went to Firmware 9 last year. I dialed down the drive in the patches I use since 9, so I was fine, but hearing everyone say the presets all sound wonderful right out the box makes me wonder if something is corrupt.

On the 1987X Treble preset, after upgrading, the ice-pick highs are painful. Again, I know I need to dial everything in again after updating the firmware, but when everyone says things sound great right out the box, I feel like I'm missing something.

If anyone using the same amplification system as I do doesn't need to dial down the drive to almost 1 in Double Verb, please let me know, I may need to contact support.
 
I found that my TM presets have to be completely redone, but the others do sound better after the usual re-tweaking of output levels and noise gate parameters.
 
Well, all things being equal, aside from the new firmware+factory-presets, I suspect the firmware is just responding to what my guitar is pushing out, and the environment around it. My Kinman's have quite a bit of bite to them, and the firmware is just doing its job.

So... I just threw a loaded pickguard with Jeff Beck noiseless pups into the strat on my bench. (I always found them too dark for my tastes, and they were on their way to ebay anyway.) So what the heck, let's see how those sounds in v10 with the factory presets.

Hoo-ray.

Stock factory presets sounds really good in comparison to my Kinman strat. More of what remember from v9, but with some more girth.

That said... my OCD has been satisfied - my problem is not a problem, it just is what it is. v10 is different. For some it is brighter. For others its darker. The v10 factory presets are harsh with my Kinmans, other versions were not.

Now I'm on to tweaking my presets (and about 8 of Fremen's that I pilfered for v9), armed with some nice knowledge of the changes, and also what others have had to tweak, too! Guess I got a head start. :)

Thanks to all for entertaining the discussion and offering all the suggestions.

Peace.
 
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