V.10 Musings

Scott Peterson

Scott Peterson

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Nothing too dramatic, but I've been working on my core tones extensively after spending months and months just beta testing and cranking through stuff not really focused on 'my' thing much. Sitting here doing really critical 'me' time - after a long time not doing that - makes me see v.10 in a different light. I had a personal epiphany about it and thought it might be a good discussion point.

Here's something to ponder about how v.10 is perceived by different people. V.10 gave the Axe-FX something it had 'controlled' before. It's rude as hell.

Now, that's just a subjective pondering and might come off as flippant or just simplistic. It's not. You now have to harness what is going on with v.10 and PLAY the hell out of it... like you do with the actual amps. You can't expect the polish you get from studio 'out of the gate' anymore, you now have the entire 'thing' flipped. I'll explain: before v.10 you had to tweak to make it more raw and rude. It was smooth and polished out of the gate. Now you could GET to the raw and rude, but it was what a lot of 'tweakers' were looking for.

What I am finding with v.10 is that you need to flip the overall perception of what this box does with regards to the raw amp tones. If you want smooth and polished you now need to tweak that in.... instead of the inverse.

Now some prefer the smooth polished thing more than the raw rude thing. It's totally cool; it's all subjective. But some of what people hear or feel - if you think about it in these terms - all makes more sense in this sort of perspective. I come from owning a lot of great amps; I was on board early because the product delivered... and then rode the sometimes crazy developmental train having more fun, learning more about tones and amps than I ever did owning and working on them (!) and seeing guitar playing and tones as a holistic 'whole' rather than focusing on the 'parts' of a given rig, (ie. '...if I just get that one OD pedal, then I'll have *the* tone...'). My personal goal and 'push' with it was always to make it more raw, more rude, more ugly. I like attitude and guitars, IMHO, in a rock band need that 'out of control' thing you get from pushing amps to, and sometimes beyond, their limits.

When people that do not have an Axe-FX look at how the development of this product goes, they tend to be dismissive and cast it in a negative light. I always get a kick out of that; from afar it would seem crazy. Nothing gets 'better' all the damn time. It can't.

I think that Fractal, at least for me, and the ongoing R&D, the pursuit of that 'thing' has been a fascinating and fun as hell adventure. Being in that 'bubble' makes it all seem normal, but it really isn't. I've always reflected, when I thought about it, that we'd look back at this adventure and chuckle at far and how fast it really went.

Just sitting here today spending a little time dialing in my 'thing' for a lot of upcoming shows was just one of those 'introspective' times and I thought it would be a good discussion point. So what do you think - separate from the 'better' debate, the 'more real' debate, this or that. Do you think that V.10 is raw and rude?
 
Due to the type of bands I'm currently in, I tend to live in the Marshall Plexi models. Version 10 feels and reacts exactly like the actual amps I've used. Yes they require some work to tame, but the 100 Watt Marshall is KILLER and a Beast. A good version of the amp is, rude, loud and requires some work to tame. It pushes, fights you and can delight you. V10 is so much like the real amp.

It was good before V10, but now it truly has that raw Marshall thing that was missing.

The AC30TB is also way KILLER, although I've never owned a vintage Vox before, so I can't comment on Rawness. Because of schedule I've not played with many of the other amps yet, but look forward to it.
 
To my ears the new producer mix IR's sound less band limited than the previous factory IR's.

I can hear that the core models sound more realistic out of the gate to my ears too.

I'm personally more familiar with old Fenders and Marshall's. The V10 models of these really sound more like the real amps without tweaking.

I'm in the camp where I've seen some AxFx guru's coax draw dropping tones out of the Standard, Ultra and II.

But I've never really gotten into super tweaking my own presets.

With V10, it's really such a no brainer to get a giggable tone with just the Basic Amp block controls. I love that aspect of it.

Richard
 
Version 10 changed everything for me. I usually play a Super Reverb/Bassman with a couple overdrives for Stacking dirt. The polishness is gone and I am so happy with that fact, because I want rude, I want nasty, That's what I grew up listening to when I heard AC/DC, Cheap Trick, Kiss etc. I now have that rudeness that I knew would come someday. Like I said in another post, think that's the reason why I want to give a bar band a try. I know that with what we have now, we can do anything that we want with any Genera or era of music that we want all in a 45 minute set. I can't wait to get out there and sell this thing. I don't think people know what a tool like this can do.

I'm exploring way more amp choices, then I ever had period.
 
Yes it is Raw and Rude now.

I enjoy the smooth polished sound also so I was already happy, but the "in your faceness" is greatly appreciated. It was the missing link that many of us WEREN'T missing. If you don't like that sound well "deal with it" I don't really want to tweak too much so having the raw sound as the default is awesome. Some of the amps like the Fenders, Plexi and Dumble have really changed a lot for the better.

My friend is a Fender tube amp snob and boutique amp builder and he came over and played through it and it put a smile on his face too. He's coming back over Thursday to jam with me and a drummer, where we'll switch off playing bass. He wants to see if it will cut through in a band setting. We're both already pretty confident it will. :untroubled:
 
The first time I strummed a chord with the new beta FW (Yes, I was naughty, I'm sorry :S), the first word that entered my mind was "Dirtier".

And it is just that, rawer, dirtier, in your face, and I love it! :)
Getting a good tone was always easy, but getting a recording that sounded like an actual, loud, pissed off cranked to the max amp was a little harder. With FW10, it's all there in spades!
 
When I first downloaded v10, the first thing I noticed is every one of my main presets sounded "nasty SOBs"; at least that's how I described it to my bandmates. That's "nasty" in a very good way, BTW. Can't describe it beyond that except that amps that had good dynamics before now have great dynamics. Over the weekend, our bassist asked if I re-tweaked my patches. When I told him it was firmware update with only a few minor tweaks (mainly treble & level) he was just blown away. He's also a guitar player & a big Vox fan. I brought up a crunchy AC30TB patch for him & he simply said "My God, it really is"!! The only thing better than the collection of amps we had is a collection of pissed off amps that we now have!
 
I don't think there is anything raw or rude about v10.

The amps I have been playing in v10 -- sound .... well like the real tube amps I have been playing all my life.

V10 has put a big smile on the faces of old timers like me.

V10 brings back many happy thoughts and memories of "tubes" gone by.
 
There's a certain je ne sais quoi to the low mids in V10 the exudes electrons flowing through a vacuum :)
 
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couldn't agree more. the plexi 100 still amazes me now - they dynamics are just so incredible, you can literally change the amount of gain with your right hand. yes, it's more work, but it's so authentic. notes just seem to leap out of the speakers. a lot of the advanced params also seem to have more effect now, especially the new ones. dialling in a tiny amount of dynamic pres can really make some notes "bloom". i can't imagine cliff really doing much more to improve the modelling (unless he finds a mistake and has to fix it)...but we've said that before...!
 
I absolutely agree that V 10 is raw and rude. My problem is as much as I like the raw grit, real sounds v10 has, I also miss the smooth less "thumpy", "pick attack heavy", sounds of v9. I just wish I could truly have the best of both worlds. I like a buttery smooth, less attack heavy sound (think Holdsworth) and I'm having some trouble getting it. It's as though the "thump" is always there. Maybe that smooth is there somewhere but I'm struggling. I've tried turning down "pick attack", triode hardness, mimic off, and switching the modeling version to 9. I do appreciate the real sounds and the more immediate response v10 offers though and when I want to rock, v10 does so in spades. When I want a fusion tone is where I'm struggling a bit.
 
groovenut said:
There's a certain je ne sais quoi to the low mids in V10 the exudes electrons floating through a vacuum :)
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I love it when you talk dirty Lawrence!

As for the OP: I couldn't agree more with much fore mentioned. Now you have to "work for it" as you do/did with tube amps. V.10 now exposes one's ability and one's mistakes much more. The Plexi's and the Fiedman's are just so friggin awesome. I said it before and I'll say it again, "with v.10, I just can't seem to wipe this stupid grin off my face".

Kudos to you Cliff!
 
To be honest I'm still struggling with the rudeness of V10. I'm a home player, and as such my take on it is probably less relevant than those who play live and are used to playing through real tube amps and are seeking to emulate that experience. I'm happy to go along with that point of view as I think those with experience of playing tube amps in live situations will undoubtedly have a different take on it.

I guess it's all about managing expectations. I was probably expecting V10 to offer even more refinement, polish and gloss to the lush 'produced' tones we had experienced up to 9.02 so it was a bit of a culture shock at first and required me to change the way I looked at the AFX. I'm still in that learning curve and trying to figure out a new approach to creating presets. I suppose I always saw modelers as a means of replicating some of the recorded tones I heard on records made by my favourite artists. The thing is, by the time we hear the music on the radio or CD the studio engineer has already dialled out much of the raw 'rudeness' of the amps used in the studio and created a more listener-friendly sound. Even so called live recordings are full of overdubs and sonic manipulation. In which case, the challenge that people like me have is to dial back in that tone but from a much more 'raw' starting point and try to replicate some of that studio polish. Does that make sense?

For example, one of my favourite factory presets up until 9.02 was 331 Mr Floyd. It was full of body, responded dynamically to different picking and guitar volume levels yet retained a really classy tone which suited quite a few different styles of music. In V10 I find the preset virtually unplayable. It lacked punch and depth, and seemed brittle and thin. I found it was possible to tweak it (increase MV, change IR, reduce gain, etc) to create a punchy 'live' crunchy floydian tone but it was then just a one-trick preset with no dynamics. I'm not a programing expert, far from it, and don't have the knowledge to tweak the parameters I need to, especially advanced params, so I use the trial and error method. I also accept that the issues I've encountered are a result of my own limitations rather than the AFX, and I'm certainly not knocking the AFX nor V10, just trying to get my head around it.

I know I could always revert to 9.02 which was my idea of tonal nirvana, but I'm not ready to do that yet, I want to persevere with V10 as I'm only scratching the surface so far. Trouble is, life is short and time is limited and at some point the lure of instant gratification may be the deciding factor.
 
All these musings.....and I identify with them. My problem is choosing. I feel like I expect a fickle school girl does. For the high gainers, I can't settle on one for my tone.
Since 5 April my favorite is a moving target. Right now I'm glued to the 5150, last week it was the Rack Preamp II combo, before that it was the Bogner Red, the Recto and the.....
Even now the growling 5150 is calling me to come play, but in the back of my mind I'm thinking about an ice cream date with the Brit 800 model.

I'm so confused.
 
My current take on all of this is that the Axe sounds like a close-mic'd guitar cab. Guitar players are used to hearing the amp in a room from a distance. Listeners are used to hearing finished recording mixes. Audio engineers have been the ones in the past who had to take the close-mic'd guiatr cab sound and turn it into a final mix. WE now have to do that now in an FRFR environment & we're just not accustomed to doing it. YOMV :)
 
Coldsummer said:
lush 'produced' tones
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Personally I would never and I mean never own something whose output offered produced tones. But then again I come from a pure analog background. I have stayed away from modeling amps (including the axe) because

a) they did not sound "real"
b) I had to work too damn hard to make them sound real (and even then I was never really happy)

If you are not used to playing tube amps (especially quality tube amps) or you have not done so in a long time, I can see how the "reality" of a real amp would come as a shocker -- and I guess from that perspective it would seem raw.

To me it is just the opposite.

The amps in v10 sound incredibly real and "familiar".

what is great is now you have a choice with AF2 and FW10

1) play a "real" amp like those now available as a result of FW10 with the type of effects structures "most" folks would use at a typical gig (in real life)
2) create lush processed studio quality tones for recording, home or live use.

But in both circumstances you need to start with a great amp!

Choice is a beautiful thing!
 
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