Using headphones to get a good live tone?

P

PaulC

Inspired
First, thanks for all the great information you all provide. I have been reading and absorbing as much as I can. I am a new user and struggling to get the tones I want for live use. The truth be told, I am not a good tweaker and want to improve that.

Part of my problem is that I am currently living in an apartment and not able to go loud enough to hear how each tone really sounds. I find my "bedroom" tones don't work with my band when we gig. Ideally, I could adjust during practice but this band is long established and does not practice much.

Right now I don't have a good pair of headphones and I have seen some posts of some high quality ones that others are using. If I get a good pair of headphones, can I turn up the level in them and replicate what I will be hearing when I play live through my FRFR system (surrently using a QSC K12)? Does anyone do this, is this a realistic way of getting a tone in the bedroom that works live with the band?
 
my 2 cents...

If this is a serious enough gig (on any level, whether it be financial, professional, spiritual, personal pride, etc.), then I would recommend that you figure out a way to audition your presets at "gig level" (and then some). If you do this by yourself without the full band context (further exacerbated when adding the "club atmosphere" of room acoustics and FOH PA system), you'll most likely find you'll need to tweak again (perhaps just the Global EQ if you're lucky) so that your sound is appropriate in that setting.

I sympathize with your dilemma, but as of yet have not read, or heard of anyone doing this with any great success. So, first step would be (by hook or crook) find a location where you CAN crank up your K-12. From there, if you're lucky, it will only be minor tweaking. The fewer discrete guitar tones you use, the quicker you'll get there. If you're covering a number of different styles and guitar sounds, then you need to make sure each one of them translates appropriately in terms of tone and level (and effects balance, if any).

What type of music are you playing, and what are the gigs like (that is, what size venues, is PA provided or owned by the group, etc.?).
 
I'm in a similar position, but i just chose 2pm on a Saturday and auditioned all 10 of my patches at loud (probably not stage monitor volume) but still loud volume and tweaked for about 30 minutes. Honestly, wasn't too bad on the volume, cause I'd play some notes, then tweak for 30 seconds....play for 15 seconds, tweak for 30, etc....i got zero complaints. I've done this 2 or 3 times. I tried to do it at a time when their were only a few cars in my parking lot, so the chances of a complaint were lower. Most people and places will put up with 30 minutes of intermitant loudness without calling cops or mgmt.....And most first cop visits are a warning :) at least in the USA that is.
I still had to adjust my global EQ when i got to the gig, but that's easy enough.

Now, i can audition similar patches through my studio monitors at lower volumes and compare to the other ones i've tested at higher volumes, and they've so far translated nicely with my frown face global EQ.

edit: Also, in a month i move to a house i'm renting, so this goes away!!!!! 11 years of apt living is gonna be done!!

edit 2: I also would recommend that if you have a couple marshall-type sounds, you can probably only do 1 of them and then tweak based on that one at lower volumes, and the same for other similar type sounds. Try to get through your major patches first, just in case the knock does come on your door, haha
 
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Thanks for the response and you are right, I am serious about what I do and have to know my tone is good enough to to use at a gig. However, my Triaxis based rig went down last weekend and I was a bit desparate and had hoped this would be a good time to introduce my new Axe based rig this weekend. I will get them together for sound check but wanted to use any options to help tweak as my skills are still developing.

I really only use 4 tones and it is mostly the Lead tones I am concerned about which don't really cut through. The gig is a small club this time and we are a cover band doing Classic Rock to Dance/Pop. We are using my PA of which I have control over the FOH sound. I have been putting off using the Axe for a while now since I want the replacement to be good to start. I know it will be tweaked to great over time.

I just had hoped this would be a tool to help get me there...
 
Thanks wake911, I am currently looking for a house as well. Only one real requirement for me (different for my girlfriend), it has to have a BIG basement for my music and studio setup...

I will try the Sat afternoon thing and see what happens.
 
Cool. You'll get there if you keep at it, read the forum, and tweak away. I must say that I admire you for only having week to prep for a gig with the AxeFx as a first time user. But it is a great way to learn the "DOs and DON'Ts" of using the AxeFx. It's also good that you'll be able to control the sound for your gig. I really doubt that you'll be totally freaked by what you hear on your first time out, but don't be surprised if you find it necessary to adjust the low end and top end of the sound, as this is a typical result of headphone or bedroom-level sound creation.
 
I set up my 'basic' presets on cans.. this is to sort out the fundamental tone / FX chains / controllers etc.. essentially all the bulk of the config..
this includes the inter-patch level relationships....

then I hire a rehearsal studio for 4 hours and take my backline so that I can dial in the EQ and other details at gig level..
also.. I take an iPOD with the band's live set and jack it through the desk so that I can get some sort of idea of how I sound 'in-situ' with the mix..
for some of the song I have access to the original Logic project files so that I can create mixes with the guitars muted [which is much better than playing along with guitar tones that are already there]....
the final lil' changes are done during band rehearsals.. but by the time I get to this stage I'd like to think that I'm around 90% there in all respects..

EDIT: I doubt you'll be able to dial in good live tones with cans... I'd guess that your tones would be bass heavy and top light, too much gain, and the digital fx [reverbs / delays / swirlies / etc] would be too strong...
 
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^^^^^ good stuff clarky. +1

what's up with the double post?


what's up with the double post?

(j/k) ;)
 
Thanks for the help and insight. It makes sense that the headphones would introduce their own limitations into the process. I thought maybe if they were high end they may represent the end result a bit better. I will try them and and see if they can get me close enough that some global EQing will make it work as you say.

Great feedback.
 
keep us posted, and let us know what you find out. Btw, are you using firmware 5.04b right now?
 
im dialing my tones through headphones and studio monitors. but as i know how they sound i can dial in sounds on both of them and they translate well to loud stage volumes (beside this: our stage is quite because of IEM ;))
 
clarky said:
I doubt you'll be able to dial in good live tones with cans... I'd guess that your tones would be bass heavy and top light, too much gain, and the digital fx (reverbs / delays / swirlies / etc) would be too strong...
Click to expand...

This.

Depending upon the gig, you've really got three scenarios, right? Headphones/recording, stage sound....and PA sound. The latter two are similar but not necessarily the same.

I probably don't want reverb on stage, for example (on dirty bits anyway), but I might want it in FOH.
 
i use k10s.

i still think it's better to make tones a low volumes on the speakers you'll gig with rather than a completely different system turned "louder" whether it's headphones, small speakers, other speakers, whatever.

when i play casually on my studio monitors, the guitar sounds a certain way. but as soon as i plug into my k10s, at very low volumes, there's just this bass presence that isn't in my studio monitors and i have to immediately dial it out. i know from experience turning them up louder to gig levels adds even MORE bass (as expected).

so i make my tones on the same speakers i'm going to gig with and i feel i'm closer to a good tone than with a different system.
 
I designed some patches at lowish home levels - then took them to gig levels and tried to compensate on the global out EQ. Not perfect because not everything is EQ (the gian for instance as Clarky said).

However, having done the exercise once, I have 2 EQs - one flat and one for live. I then invert them so the live EQ is flat and the other is compensated for low volume. Provided I remember the gain issue (ie not too much at lower levels) my patches now translate fairly well. The caveat is that its the same speaker in both senarious. FWIW my "quiet" patches have a big boost in the bass (6-8 db or so), a slight cut in the 500hz range, 1K is flat and a small rise in the 2/4/8K ranges.
 
gin said:
im dialing my tones through headphones and studio monitors. but as i know how they sound i can dial in sounds on both of them and they translate well to loud stage volumes (beside this: our stage is quite because of IEM ;))
Click to expand...

wow... this is pretty surprising..
but if it works for you and you can make it stick then that's really cool...
I think you're an exception rather than the norm..
 
what I do it to create three banks of presets..
bank 1 = studio [I do all my recording / practice / etc with these]
bank 2 = live [all presets were copied from bank 1, tweaked for high volumes through my Marshall backline, and they occupy the same locations on the floor controller so that my bank 1 practice sessions are no different to my bank 2 live performances..]
bank 3 = experimental [these are copies of the bank 1 presets that I noodle with when I think of new ways of doing things.. if I come up with something cool it'll replace it's 'active' equivalent presets in bank 1 and then get the 'live' treatment to make bank 2]

all presets that are to be replaced are archived first.. although they are over-written, they are never lost and can be retrieved if need be..
 
You can add bass while tweaking at low volumes over headphones, that way it will not be too much when you crank up the volume on stage. Highs are usually too much anyway with almost every headphone, so there is no correction neccesary while tweaking. Look flechter-munsen curves to get the freqs for the bass.

You can play over a console into headphones using a live-recording of the band (if exists), that way you get a good impression about the gain and volume needed for certain songs. Leveling presets is easier when you know where you want to go to.

Keyboards always seem too loud over headphones, that's typical, and almost anything sounds a bit too clear and near and central. Don't waste clarity when you tweak, it'll be missing when you crank up.

A bit of the gain playing live is the feedback where the moved air is having it's impact on the guitar and the strings.
It's part of the sound and it's part of the feeling while playing, kind of compression/fullness/gain-thing. With headphone it's missing and you could tweak the gain a bit too high and have to reduce it later on stage.

You could program more than one bank with little changes from bank to bank, so u'd be prepared when the ones you thought would do the job suddenly are not the right ones. I often enough had my presets too bassy and too fat but I always had some more banks in reserve.
 
Great posts and advice, thanks for all your help. The engineer in me really likes the way people think on this forum and the potential of the Axe Fx2. I would be lying if I didn't say it frustrates the hell out of me, but I believe totally in the unit and myself to get there along with the rest of you on the same journey.

Onward
 
Hello I would like to add a thought about settings in a live performance
Turn of any reverb except to create a dramatic reverb effect. The environment with provide natural reverb.
Delays can be a source of problems too and levels should be set at the venue.
Ideally a separate dry and wet output to be mix by the sound man.
 
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