Using Compression for metal (Bulb style)

slothy one

slothy one

Inspired
Hey guys, I just got my axe-fx yesterday (sweet!!) and I'm making some metal patches. I'm trying to make a bulb-type patch, and i know he uses heavy compression. I have always struggled trying to understand compression, especially how to use it for metal. All i know is that you generally put it first in the chain. I tried to search the forums as I'm sure this has been asked before but I got so many results with the words compressor/compression and metal that I couldn't find anything helpful.

I have the standard so I don't have the multiband compressor. I am also using a guitar with active pickups (81/85)... will that lead to me noticing the compression less? Please give me some thoughts on how I can use and understand it.

Thanks in advance.

p.s. I read in the online manual that I can use an envelope as a modifier for a highpass filter to tighten up the low end. It's not really making a difference for me. Any suggestions? Should I put it just before the amp, or before the tube screamer as well? It says

Here's a trick to tighten up the low end on high gain patches:
1. Put a filter block before the amp block. Set the type to Highpass.
2. Attach the Envelope controller to the Frequency parameter. Use default settings for the Envelope parameters.
3. Set the Scale to 40%, Offset to around 22%.
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Re: Using Compression for metal

I don't see any reason to use compression with high gain - the signal is already totally compressed. The trick is to get high gain tones while still keeping some dynamics.
 
Re: Using Compression for metal

tbh I don't need dynamics. I have other guitars and presets I use when I want dynamics, but for this particular patch I want a really heavy and compressed tone in which every note is equally strong. The active pickups help with that, but I know that compressors can help in this aspect tone-wise.
 
It depends on if you need it? i mean just putting compression on it just because is not the way to go about it - i find it depends on the guitar really weather it needs it or not if yout trying to tame a really willey guitar yeah it helps with that.
First thing is try and dial in the tone without it say start with recto orange or the like, see how you can dial it in, you might be already there with the chime and punch your looking for.

The filter block i use first in my chain, if i use compression it goes after the filter block - the filter trick is subtle, i've used it from day 1 but i question it's necessity any more, as you can just cut frequencies in other ways with filters or eq, but it probably always be there in my patches, just um..because,.. with some guitars patches i use a stand alone filter or two at the end as well to bump a freq or two if i need.

everyones needs are different, some dial in an amp and cab and they're good - for me it takes a bit of work as in with any amp i've ever owned nothing is just right to me and needs eq ect to get it to where i want it. I recently tried a little multiband on a patch i have for a very wild and excitable guitar maple/ash and it really helped,..alot. For my ibanez it doesn't really need it, in fact it would probably be detrimental.

Anyway, point being Use it if you need it, not just because, and with emg's you probably need it less than more, but whatever gets you to point B.
Shredders like the guy your talking about, need it because they are playing like math at a thousand miles an hour and they need it to keep shit from turning to mud - do you play like that?, if not, practice is more important that compression :D

GL

PS.. Check the wiki and related wikis there is good info on using compression by members here, most anything you need to know hit up the wiki first it's probably covered, also any articles around the web on the subject can help you to understand it more and it's applications.
 
I'm not sure if Misha actually puts compression on a guitar sound. I wouldn't.

I always thought that compression came in the mixing. He puts heavy compression over the entire mix.
 
slothy one said:
I have always struggled trying to understand compression, especially how to use it for metal. All i know is that you generally put it first in the chain.
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Cliff has provided an excellent tool to learn how to use the studio compressor. It's the meter on the compressor editing menu.

Set up a clean patch with low gain. Unless your picking is very even, as you pick scales and such you will have loud notes and low notes as you play. Now turn on the compressor. Set the mode to studio, manual. Set lookahead to 0 and mix to 100%.

Set the threshold to 0db, and the ratio to 1. The compressor is now on, but not really doing anything. Now play some, watch the meter at the bottom of the screen. It should not be moving much, because the threshold setting is so high. Now lower the threshold. As you lower it, you should see the meter start to respond by dropping as you play louder notes. This is the action of the compressor, which reduces the gain automatically as the notes you play exceed the threshold. Try to find a setting that moves the meter on your loud notes, but not on your soft ones. The idea here is that we want to squash the loud notes down to the level of the quiet notes.

Now raise the ratio. You should see the compression meter drop even more. The ratio increases the amount of compression which is applied after the threshold is exceeded. Higher ratios make the effect more obvious and dramatic.

Now you can mess around with attack and release. Attack affects how fast the compressor responds to the attack, release affects how quickly the compressor returns after the note dies. As you adjust these settings, watch the meter, you should see the meter respond more quickly or slowly. These settings are important if you are trying to use the compressor to get more sustain. The idea is that when you hit the note, the front end gets squashed. As the note naturally decays, the compressor will release, which raises the gain, giving the illusion of sustain. Unfortunately, you tend to hear the noise pump up at this point as well.

On the next page are settings like knee, detector type, etc. These settings affect the way the compressor operates. Without getting technical, you should hear some minor differences if you play with these, just pick a setting that sounds good.

Another very powerful parameter is the mix setting. This allow you blend some uncompressed signal with compressed signal. Compression tends to kill the brightness, this allows you a way to get it back. Sometimes I run as much as 50% uncompressed with guitar. For bass I run almost fully compressed.

As you play around with these settings you will need to adjust the gain to keep the volume constant. What I look for are settings that smooth out my uneven picking without making it too obvious I'm using a compressor. Too much compression can start to sound like an automatic volume swell effect.

Having said all this, I agree with the other posters that you shouldn't need compression on metal or br00tz gain levels. The amp model should give you all you need. Adding compression to high gain tends to make it muddy. If you just need some more punch, try a null filter as a boost.

JWW
 
tandjent said:
I'm not sure if Misha actually puts compression on a guitar sound. I wouldn't.

I always thought that compression came in the mixing. He puts heavy compression over the entire mix.
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He uses a keeley compressor which fights with 2 noise gates live.
 
Thank you for all of the responses. I really appreciate it and I'll look into it immediately. I feel I understand compressors better now, but at times it's still hard for me to necessarily hear the difference, even when I'm listening for it. Maybe it's just something my ears will need to grow used to with time.
 
Try parallel compression with a twist…. and you’re not ‘compressing’ either. It's probably not the easiest thing to learn but it works great.

After the amp block set two defaulted compressors up in series. The idea here is to get the first compressor to add gain via intentional pumping, which after being mixed with the uncompressed signal will fill in the space immediately after the initial transient of the uncompressed signal. The second compressor is only used as glue to tighten up the resultant combination of the two signals. This second compressor may not be necessary but you don’t know that yet so... The end result is the ‘larger than life’ thing while maintaining definition and works on just about everything, not just metal. Done correctly, the perceived loudness will be greater as well and that’s usually a good thing.

To start, bypass the second compressor and make the first one pump like mad just to help get the release time spot on to suit the tempo. This is important. To do this start with the attack time around noon, release fully clockwise and the ratio up high - somewhere around 15-1. Leave all the other parameters at default for now except for hard knee - use it for set up. Play away and adjust the threshold so you get most of the meter showing gain reduction while playing. Now adjust the release time to suit the tempo of the song. That’s all you’re sorting out at this point and the radical settings are just being used to isolate the effect of release time - timing is everything here. The rise in volume (more like a pop or rush) that your hearing which occurs as the compressor releases is eventually what is going to give you the 'body' that will be tucked under/after the uncompressed transient. Leaving the release alone now, dial in the attack so the front end of the initial transient is slightly chopped off. You should be getting a picture of what’s happening and the meter should be close to bouncing back and forth almost full scale as you play. Adjust the threshold so the gain reduction returns to zero (or almost) just before the next strike while still playing at the tempo of the tune. Now fine tune the attack and ratio to find even more movement still, without chopping off much more of the transient. If zero (or close to) cannot be achieved at the tempo your working and the release time is at its fastest, raise the threshold to it get there as quick as possible while still having a decent amount of gain reduction. Go back and forth across the parameters (except release) a few times to get it just right. When you’re done with this it should sound like you have some weirdo dynamics happening and it sounds bad. The more it breathes, pops and pumps the better at this point.

Now that you have something to work with, use the mix control to slip this horrible mess under the uncompressed signal and viola, the fun starts. Now you get to go back and tweak on that horrible part so it plays well with the uncompressed signal and it's doing what it's supposed to do. The amount of pumping you have generated will probably be too much so reduce the ratio first because it’s the biggie now, or mix in less pumpage - whatever works. The other parameters not mentioned so far will have some affect too so at this stage play with them - particularly the filter, detection type and knee. Doing so will probably change things enough to where you will need to go back and fiddle about, with maybe a slight tweak to release time as well, but be careful as that’s the major 'timer' of the whole darn thing - and steer clear of make-up gain. Be sure to tweak the attack time a bit while the pump is mixed back in as it's a heck of a variable in mix context. You will hear the affect of a longer attack time which adds more ‘front-end’ and a shorter attack time that produces more ‘back end’ while this doctored mess blends with the transient of the uncompressed signal. Go back and forth and all around till its right or you’re out of beer.

An alternative to using the mix control is to set up the pumping compressor in parallel to the dry signal and follow up with the second compressor immediately after they are mixed back together. Depending on the person it may be easier on the head but you will use more cpu this way. If you really want to hurt your head, immediately follow the pumper compressor with some PEQ to shape the tone or tame nasty artifacts. It’s not uncommon to boost at least one relatively narrow frequency range that works well with the material too.

The second compressor is only used to even out the added dynamics when you end up adding more pump than you could otherwise get away with. By now you should know how to do this part of it - just keep the attack slow to start, with the release setting no slower than the prior compressor.

Note that any gain variance upstream of the compressor(s) input could change everything. If so, you need to (at a minimum) compensate by readjusting the compressor threshold to suit. Moving the compression upstream of the amp generally doesn't work as well (for me) but there are no rules so....

Also try this after the cab and be aware that sag can have a large effect on what the first compressor acts upon. The combination of sag and damp can have as much to do with the threshold action of the compressor as the filter does. You may also find that what works for one part of the tune doesn’t for another. If so, rig up something to switch about. Playing guitar then stopping to tweak while setting up compression like this is tough because you really need a third hand. Using a looper or reamping to set it up is the best way to get it close. Another set up limitation is that you can only change one variable at a time where with a hardware compressor you can simultaneously adjust multiple parameters against one another which speeds up the process. Effort = results. :shock:
 
Not my brilliance, but thanks. The method has been around for a long time and it's usually done at mix, prior to 2-buss and mastering compression. Can't think of a pro recording that doesn't have parallel comp on just about every track these days.

For those that chase the sound of a tune and can't get the in-your-face thing going without the meters going nuts that's probably what's missing. There are multiple stages of compression that a tune must endure before it's done and most folk use multiple compressors in series, each doing a little, rather than one balls out. Even so, if you don't start with a good dynamic (but fits in the meters) track, it will not survive the trip well.

No reason why you can't do it live either, it's just a bit finicky. It really helps to add the fullness to your tone and you fit better with the band not having these huge dynamic transients that come with excessive volume necessary to otherwise get the body thing going. That forces drummers to get stupid and the whole thing becomes a volume war.

Bands need to mix well live too, but how many FOH guys are willing or know how to deal with parallel compression? Do it yourself and feed it to them. :D

So.... Laedan Kiana, did you have a go at it?
 
Widrace, excellent tip my friend!!!

I had to read through it a couple of times to understand exactly what was happening.

I was able to dial in the first compressor exactly how you specified and fine tuned it.

The second one however, to my ears isn't doing much. The available attributes are different from the first one.

I followed this:

"just keep the attack slow to start, with the release setting no slower than the prior compressor."

but to me I'm getting no different effect (to my ears) then with the first one alone. My mix is around 30%, I eliminated the pops as suggested. What am I missing with the second one?


"Note that any gain variance upstream of the compressor(s) input could change everything. If so, you need to (at a minimum) compensate by readjusting the compressor threshold to suit. Moving the compression upstream of the amp generally doesn't work as well (for me) but there are no rules so...."

What do you mean by "gain variance upstream of the compressor(s) input"? I'm running the compressors in series right after the amp and before my cab.

Thanks for any help.
 
finstah said:
The second one however, to my ears isn't doing much. The available attributes are different from the first one. I followed this: "just keep the attack slow to start, with the release setting no slower than the prior compressor." but to me I'm getting no different effect (to my ears) then with the first one alone. My mix is around 30%, I eliminated the pops as suggested. What am I missing with the second one?
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Nothing. The second compressor is used only when the end result is too dynamic - like you may get with a funky/spanky clean. Usually you would only need a touch of limiting to trim the peaks off for this.

finstah said:
"Note that any gain variance upstream of the compressor(s) input could change everything. If so, you need to (at a minimum) compensate by readjusting the compressor threshold to suit. Moving the compression upstream of the amp generally doesn't work as well (for me) but there are no rules so...."

What do you mean by "gain variance upstream of the compressor(s) input"? I'm running the compressors in series right after the amp and before my cab.
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For example... with your patch the way you like it, lets say you crank up the amp drive. The first compressor will see a stronger level signal now and as a result will act differently. Usually compensation via threshold will restore intended operation when this happens. At the same time the level of the uncompressed signal went up too, and when combined with the unintended operation of the compressed signal things can be vastly different.

If you were running a second compressor after the two signals are combined and prior compensation adjustments weren't made, the second compressor would now see a somewhat higher input level and act differently.

A compensating reduction of amp block output would allow the compressor(s) to be hit as intended and maintain the balance as well without having to monkey with the threshold and such again, but your tone has changed (more drive) so you may want to look at comp settings or the balance again anyway.

If I was to post this again, I would probably leave out the part about the second compressor as it's not needed all that often. If you don't need a touch-up after the fact your good!

How about describing the result your hearing with p/compression....
 
I cleaned it up a bit and I'd have to say comparing the pre and post patches the one with the setup above does help me come through the mix quite well. I don't know if I've got the 'BBE' syndrome going on right now but I'm happy with the results.
 
I tried that parallel comp trick, I had tape drive > t808 mod > jcm 800 > cab > comp > comp.

For some reason, no matter what I do I can't get the comp to squash ONLY the hard-picked notes all the way but leave the soft-picked notes alone, if I twist the threshold too low, it will squash everything, and only half way at that, if I set it high enough that it leaves lightly-picked notes unsquashed, it will only squash the hard-picked notes down about 1/10th of the way of the bar(on the bottom of the screen), this is with ratio on 20:1, and it's not enough to produce a very pronounced pumping effect.

I tried tweaking the OD level and amp level, basically volume levels before the comp, and it doesn't seem to change anything.

Any tips there?

One thing I'm thinking is it might just not be pronounced at low volume, if I was at gigging volume that small difference might sound very audible.

Either way, the concept is very interesting and I'm really glad you're sharing it. :)

@Prometh, I actually find most high gain amps in the axe too bright, too much "hair", but a very slight compression seems to have helped balance that out a bit. I ended up with a pretty cool sounding jcm800 patch today. ^^
 
silentrage said:
For some reason, no matter what I do I can't get the comp to squash ONLY the hard-picked notes all the way but leave the soft-picked notes alone, if I twist the threshold too low, it will squash everything, and only half way at that, if I set it high enough that it leaves lightly-picked notes unsquashed, it will only squash the hard-picked notes down about 1/10th of the way of the bar(on the bottom of the screen), this is with ratio on 20:1, and it's not enough to produce a very pronounced pumping effect.

I tried tweaking the OD level and amp level, basically volume levels before the comp, and it doesn't seem to change anything.
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It's not always easy as it's very program dependent.

Is the second compressor bypassed? It should be for set-up.

Somethings to try:

Mess with Attack/Release more. Slow them both. Get that meter moving and make sure it recovers fully or it will be too damped.

Switch to RMS detection.

Sweep the filter freq looking for max meter movement

Loop the passage or reamp it. Much easier to set up.

Some stuff just won't pump. If that's the case just get it good and tight and tuck that in.
silentrage said:
One thing I'm thinking is it might just not be pronounced at low volume, if I was at gigging volume that small difference might sound very audible.
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Indeed, but when dialed in nicely it works both for a 2-mix and live.
finstah said:
I cleaned it up a bit and I'd have to say comparing the pre and post patches the one with the setup above does help me come through the mix quite well. I don't know if I've got the 'BBE' syndrome going on right now but I'm happy with the results.
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If your referring to the manner in which the maximizers/exciters work this is not the same. It doesn't 'thin' or 'comb' to get definition - it adds a meaty fullness where it counts which allows bandwidth trimming for room in the mix.
prometh said:
I personally don't like compression for metal guitars cuz it makes them sound dull. However, compression may be needed for a final mix, but I dunno for sure as I haven't gotten that far yet.
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This isn't compression in the traditional sense - it adds dynamics, which is what the second compressor would trim (when nescessary).
 
I listen to Periphery, so I know the type of tone you are after. I don't think you need any compression honestly. I go for very tight, crunchy tones also. I have experimented with a compressor before the amp blocks, and it really doesn't help the tone at all. It just makes the tone a bit dull and actually less djenty. Misha used to use all those pedals - compressor, tubescreamer, 3 noise gates (including the one in the amp) when he was running an Engl head. I doubt he uses compression in his Axe-FX signal though. Probably just: filter trick, TS808 (which already adds plenty of compression), amp, and cab with one or two noise gates in there somewhere (I like using a gate after the amp the best). And maybe an EQ after the amp to further dial in the tone if it's needed.
 
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