Using CLRs with a separate sub

yek

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I've added a sub (EV ZXA1) to my CLRs, for use as a small sound system (not just for guitar).

The ZXA1 has a built-in crossover at 100 Hz.

The CLRs have a SUB ON/OFF switch. When engaged, lows beneath 120 Hz are attenuated.

Can I leave the SUB switch off, because of the EV's crossover?

(EDIT: changed ZVA1 into ZXA1)
 
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Yes, but you might be doubling up on some frequencies depending on slope of crossovers, which can add some mud.

What I do is select 80hz crossover on my Sub, use 6 band PEQ to tighten it up a bit and get more thump. I don't connect CLR to sub crossover output. I run them full range with sub switch to off, run a PEQ on them to carve out 3.5-6k, around 500-600hz, and use sloping shelf in the PEQ to set "crossover". I slide shelf up until I hear lows "clean up" (eliminate doubled frequencies). I tend to like CLR crossed over a bit lower since I cross sub so low. My sub sounds cleaner at lower crossover.

This setup is a bit more like active crossover and lets me adapt better to acoustics in different venues. Some I need CLR crossed over higher, some lower, especially outside.
 
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I would leave the sub switch off.

I have the ZXA1 sub (I'm unfamiliar with the ZVA1, but assuming it's similar) and 1st generation CLRs. The EV has a pretty steep HF dropoff from about 90Hz. Coincidentally, the CLR (1st generation, at least) has a LF dropoff from about 90Hz.
 
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I would leave the sub switch off.

I have the ZXA1 sub (I'm unfamiliar with the ZVA1, but assuming it's similar) and 1st generation CLRs. The EV has a pretty steep HF dropoff from about 90Hz. Coincidentally, the CLR (1st generation, at least) has a LF dropoff from about 90Hz.
We're both using 12" subs. How do you like the ZXA1?
I've been using an RCF 702 ASII I picked up for $650. Small and light, which I love, but it likes to rumble at 70-100hz so I have to cross over lower and do a couple EQ tricks to get it where I like it. Even then, I'd like a 15" but I'm short on space and venues aren't paying enough to motivate haulage of a 70+lb sub.
 
We're both using 12" subs. How do you like the ZXA1?
It's cute. We used one ZXA1 sub with a pair of DXR10s. The Yamahas are good for a ballroom with about 100 people, but the sub was just "adequate." I would like to have two, but since I'm the only one in the band shelling out for the PA, that's all we got for now. The Yamaha HPF is selectable from OFF, 100Hz, 120Hz. We set ours at 100Hz and the mix seemed okay with the EV.

Edit:
For reference, this was with programmed drums. With a live drummer, the LF needs may change.
 
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Thanks guys.

@solo: that seems like a lot of additional EQ-ing that I'd like to avoid.

The point is: I'm not sure how the EV sub operates.

a) Does it take the incoming full-range signal and send it "as is" (full-range) through to the CLRs, while amplifying the bass freqs through the woofer?

b) Or does its built-in crossover split the incoming signal, and "high-pass" it to the CLRs?

This is relevant to the way the CLRs handle the lows through the SUB switch.

I'm guessing that running the CLRs with SUB engaged makes them more efficient, not having to put a lot of energy in the <120 Hz content. But I don't know if that's true.

And if SUB is engaged, what happens with the range between 100 (sub's crossover) and 120 Hz (CLR high-pass), is that important?
 
Short answer: connect board to sub, and sub to CLRs with sub set to "on" and crank it up with your band. If you like it, you're done. If not, try with CLR sub switch to "off". If you don't like that, then you have a little work to do.

@solo: that seems like a lot of additional EQ-ing that I'd like to avoid.
You can avoid EQing the CLRs if you want, but they don't have attenuation (a "smiley face") in the range of 2k-7k like other PA speakers do. Which is good if you want to EQ your own sound, but not so good if you're doing vocals and full band through them and you want to avoid EQing.
b) Or does its built-in crossover split the incoming signal, and "high-pass" it to the CLRs?
Most self-powered subs are set up that way.
I'm guessing that running the CLRs with SUB engaged makes them more efficient, not having to put a lot of energy in the <120 Hz content. But I don't know if that's true.
Yes that's generally true.
And if SUB is engaged, what happens with the range between 100 (sub's crossover) and 120 Hz (CLR high-pass), is that important?
Depends on crossover slopes. If they're not steep, it can sound fine. If they're steep there can be a hole in the sound. I put PEQ on mains so I have an EQ to work with. And since I crossover sub at 80hz, I don't use the CLR crossover and use PEQ shelving as an active crossover, which lets me tune CLR "crossover" per venue to get the best sound. YMMV
 
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As near as I can tell by reading the manual, the ZXA1-SUB applies no filtering to its XLR outputs (they're intended to connect to mains or other subs). So turn your on the CLR's SUB switches.
 
Hey @yek, there is a concept of an electric and acoustic crossover. While on paper it might seem there is a hole between 100 & 120, it's unlikely to be the case in practise.

Subs are often run a little hotter than the tops, so you'll find that your 100hz content is already a bit louder than 120, and there should be a gentle overlap between the 2.

As solo said, it does depend on the slopes, but I wouldn't let this perceived 'gap' worry you.

Leave the crossover turned on (sub on) and hopefully the sub is big enough to provide all the < ~120Hz content in rooms you are playing in.

( I have 2x SRX818 and they generally have plenty of low end for any size gig that I would bring my pa )
 
Use a crossover before the speakers. I have never had satisfactory results relying on the eq on the speaker. I'll bet you'll find that crossover point lower than you thought.
 
@yek , what is your mixing board? A popular method of implementing subwoofers is to feed them via an extra Aux send (mono). With digital small format mixers like the Mackie DL1608 or the Behringer XR-18, you have additional processing options (discrete Aux EQ/limiting) which can help you fit the subs into the mix with more versatility, and use a HPF to fine tune the crossover point perhaps lower than the factory spec - you may or may not need to engage the SUB switch on the CLRs, but let your ears be the guide.

The idea behind this is: the vast majority of channels don't benefit by subwoofer content (vocals, traditional guitar sounds, horns, and drums - other than kick and low-tuned floor toms). Thus, by only adding (via aux send) the channels that have desired subwoofer content, you'll be using the subs efficiently, with less worry about HPF-ing all the other channels to keep their content clear of the subs.

So, bass guitar, keyboards (maybe, if the left-hand keys don't create a sonic space war with the bassist), kick drum, floor tom(s), and break/pre-recorded music are the only things you'd want to feed the subs. Then you can gently bring the sub level up and down as desired, without its level being tied to the Mains L/R level controls OR EQ/dynamics processing.

A side benefit is that you won't need to be concerned about having to "jumper" from the subwoofer to the L/R speakers, which IMO, is just a cleaner way of doing things.

OTOH, if you don't need that amount of fine tuning where subwoofer volume isn't so thunderous, the advice already provided is all good.
 
Yes, Jim, I was thinking about that. We use a X32 Compact, so it has those capabilities. But I need to reserve the AUX sends for monitoring. HPF-ing the other channels is another easy way to accomplish this indeed.
 
Hmm that's strange. In that particular case it looks like Musician's Friend wrote their own product summary and over-interpreted the manual. But if it's a common theme among several different vendors, then I don't know. Maybe e-mail EV?

I did, waiting for their answer.
 
EV just responded:

"The zxa1-sub output is full range, without high-pass filtering applied."
 
With the subs in my PA I do what @jimfist suggested and use an aux for the subs.

I've got an older Presonus 24.4.2.1 digital board.

My system uses a dedicated crossover / limiter with stereo full range in and stereo main out and mono sub out.

I run the mono sub out back into the mixer then out another aux to the power amps for the subs.

For the subs I like to be able to:
- flip the phase of the subs vs. mains (this alone is worth the extra patching)
- eq
- compress

It really improved my setup when I switched to that.

I've got a 15+horn main and two 18" subs on each side running this way.
 
@yek ... use a HPF to fine tune the crossover point perhaps lower than the factory spec - you may or may not need to engage the SUB switch on the CLRs, but let your ears be the guide.

I'd second the use of an external crossover. We've found the crossover in a cheap Behringer 32 band graphic to be more effective than the crossover built into our sub. It also simplifies the cable routing because you're not going in and out of the sub.
 
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