Using Cab sims into a guitar cabinet

F

fearlessflier

Inspired
My chain is Gibson SG Classic > Ultra > Mesa 20/20 > Marshall1960A.
Or I use an oversize 112 with a Celestion V30 for practice.
No studio work for me - it's all live playing.

Here's the thing - although I know I should not use a cab sim as I don't have an FRFR set-up, presets sometimes sound more dynamically "alive" with cab sim engaged.
The drawback is the obvious one - too much attenuation of higher frequencies and a kind of muddiness.

But the Cab sims definitely seem to add something to the dynamics. Is there another way I can add this extra feel?

Same thing to a degree with the power amp sims defeated by turning the sag all the way down. It loses something, so I tend to have it set very low, rather than zero. Any ideas on how to get the best out of this rig? (apart from changing to FRFR. Been there, couldn't make it work. Also tried an ART SLA2 instead of the Mesa, but ended up changing back)
 
I used to have a very similar rig (Standard into mesa boogie 50/50 into 4x12 celestion 75s)
Cab sims didn't do any good to the sound nor the dynamics, so I never used them.
However, I did use extensively the power amp sims. I'd turn on the power amp sims and use them in their default values for sag. Of course my 50/50 was much louder than your 20/20, which probably means that I never needed to push the tube amp into power amp distortion, cause it could get really loud when I had it dialed on 4...
But, to answer your questions, no, the cab sims never worked for me when I was playing with a tube amp/guitar cab rig.
 
Those 20/20s are loud. I used one on one gig, and was very surprised at the power. Nice amp. Anyway, maybe you can put an eq after the cab and dial out some of the mud.
 
I dialed mine in through a carvin 4x12 and it sounded good with cab sims on....removed cab sims, and it was bleh.....then made some tweaks (i had been accounting for the cab sims) and it opened up WAY MORE....sounded tons better. I'd recommend dialing in some tones without cab sims, and compare them...i think you'll like no sims better.

But, screw everything we say, it's your ears man, if yo udig the sound, go with it and rock on!!!
 
try messing with the drive and air parameters and what not to fit your needs. Also, try without a mic. but yeah, whatever sails your boat man. heck, I sometimes use a mic with the redwirez IR's even though the IR I chose was based on a mic / position in the first place.
 
Thanks for the suggestions.

I should add that I audition most of my patches at quite low volume at home. That might be something to do with it, I suppose.

Yes, I don't mind breaking convention if it works for my ears. Overall, adding the cab sims is not an improvement - the extra vibrancy is more than offset by the attenuation of frequencies. It makes me wonder if there was some way to add whatever-it-is that the cab sims add, without also adding the frequency curve. i.e. something like a flat response cab sim. Is anyone aware of an IR like that, and how I might get a hold of it?

No I have not tried parallel. I get the feeling it would tend to add less of everything - both good and bad. However - that is a good suggestion.

Maybe I need to experiment more with EQ. I've just upgraded to FW11 and have yet to try it out - maybe it will help.

Yes the 20/20 is surprisingly loud - I rarely run it over 5. I've always tended to turn Sag to the minimum and leave everything else at default. More experimentation, methinks, although I often end up chasing my tail. So many parameters, so little time....!
 
I just tried using some cab sims this week with my Mesa 1x12 ported cab. On many presets it sounds pretty good on some it sounds better without. It can really help when I use something like a recto cab with the dual rectifier to thicken up the single 12" speaker. I do use the poweramp sims as well but I use a Engl 840/50 which is really a pretty clear amp with 6L6 tubes. Would really like to try some QSC K12's one day for that FRFR experience. Let your ears set up the presets so they sound good to you and forget the rules!
 
Personally I would ditch the 20/20 and move to something that doesn't have such a huge sonic foot print. As to running a cab sin into a guitar cab I have never been a fan of doing it. I try to use EQ to accomplish what your looking to get from cab sims.
 
Like most I generally do not use cab sims with real cabs. But with my POD XT + power amp setup I used to do it with certain models/patches. Just because I owned that rig for a long time and experimented like crazy with it... and just every once in a while it sounded better.

So there are no "rules". That's the beauty of modeling you can easily do goofy things/experiments you'd never bother with in real life. :) My cab is a 2x12 and it seemed like 2x12 or smaller cab models on the XT worked better. The cab model used never made "Sense" the way it would in a real patch (i.e. a Mesa Recto and 4x12) it always ended up being something way kooky. I almost always added EQ, too. Maybe I'll try it with the Axe... I still have the same power amp and 2x12.
 
fearlessflier said:
I should add that I audition most of my patches at quite low volume at home. That might be something to do with it, I suppose.
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That has a lot to do with it. Low volume will suck the life out of any tone, to the point where anything that adds its own character could be perceived as an improvement.


fearlessflier said:
It makes me wonder if there was some way to add whatever-it-is that the cab sims add, without also adding the frequency curve. i.e. something like a flat response cab sim. Is anyone aware of an IR like that, and how I might get a hold of it?
Click to expand...
A shunt is identically equal to a flat-response IR. An IR without its EQ curve would perform the same as no cab sim at all.


fearlessflier said:
Yes the 20/20 is surprisingly loud - I rarely run it over 5.
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Don't let the numbers fool you. A 50-watt amp is only 4 dB louder than a 20-watt amp.


Take wake911's suggestion: dial in some tones from scratch, without the cab sims, and see what you think.
 
Mesa 20/20

I have a couple of the Mesa 20/20's as well as many other power amps and anybody that needs more power than a 20/20 for live use is doing it wrong.

< spam >
A huge bonus with the 20/20 is the deep mod, if you can do that, it totally opens up the amp and makes it that much more awesome. If anyone is interested, I could mod your 20/20 with the deep mod if you don't feel comfortable doing it. I use toggle switches on the front of the unit (one for each side). Price would be like $25 plus return shipping.
< /spam >

Back to the OP; I've used my Standard with the 20/20 into a Mesa 2x12 vert with cab sims and get some great results, however, I always feel like it's not the best approach to it and end up turning off the cab sims and making tweaks elsewhere. There's tons of other places to make tweaks besides the cab sims when using a real cab.
 
I play my Axe though a Splawn 4x12 w/ Splawn Small Blocks. I use the cab sims and they sound fine to me. When I turn them off it sounds like crap, but I guess I will eventually experiment with turning cab sims off and then tweaking to see what I prefer.
 
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Metlupass2 said:
I play my Axe though a Splawn 4x12 w/ Splawn Small Block. I use the cab sims and they sound fine to me. When I turn them off it sounds like crap, but I guess I will eventually experiment with turning cab sims off and then tweaking to see what I prefer.
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What are you using for a power amp with your AxeFX?
 
You have my same setup.. Ultra --> Mesa 20/20 --> 1960a. I also go out to FOH.. I was having trouble splitting the signal for a non-Cab simulated output to my cabinet. I just use the EQ for output 2 to dial out any unwanted stuff. Sounds great, if it's not "the right way" to do it, I don't care, it works for me and it sounds great. If it works for you, do it!
 
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