Using an FRFR for live performance? What's your output level strategy?

LeonC

Inspired
I use an Atomic CLR Wedge for amplifying my AX8 on stage. I'm wondering if there is an optimal way to set the output level on the AX8 and the output level on the speaker. E.g., does it make more sense to keep the AX8 level down and the FRFR level up? Does it make more sense to keep the AX8 level up and the FRFR level down? Or is it best to go somewhere in the middle?

I've been going in the middle, typically setting the AX8's output level at about 12:00. My reasoning is that a) I like the idea of having "output to spare" on the AX8 if I need it in some venue. b) I can't imagine that anything good comes from running the FRFR really high all the time. But I do wonder if there's a better approach based on how AX8 design or some other factor I'm unaware of or haven't considered.
 
Austin Buddy uses the AX8 on 10 and controls the volume through the speaker. He sells awesome presets that are made with that setting.
Chris says it shouldn’t matter and uses I think the half way method. There’s really no correct answer just what ever sounds good for your tone and playing.
 
Austin Buddy's method doesn't work well for me

I use a CLR as well.

On the ax8 I have my vue meter patch output level touching the line for my presets

On the CLR I have the channel and master knobs at noon.

I adjust my volume on the ax8. for patch making (performance volume) and live use, I wind up at around 12 or 1 o clock
 
I play through a standard PA speaker because I like to hear roughly what the audience hears. I keep the controlling output knob for the monitor at around "noon" and the same for the FOH output. It's a lot easier to control the output for your monitor from the AX8 during a performance.
 
Interesting responses so far. Yeah, MikeBrooklyn, I say my approach is quite close to yours. And so far I haven't heard any technical or logical reason to do things differently...but I'm still open to other thoughts.

There are some other issues tied into one's approach to volume setting. For context, note that I mostly play in an 8-piece r&b band with keys, another guitar and 3 horns; I can easily be drowned out...or I can totally overpower everyone :eek:

One issue has to do with insuring that you are heard at an appropriate volume when you should be and aren't too loud when you shouldn't be. About 75% of the time, I'm gigging without a dedicated sound man who knows our material. That means it's on ME to figure out how to boost my volume when I need to be louder so I can get out front, and how to back off when I shouldn't be out front. I had been using the CLR as a monitor/wedge pointed at me from the front, with the intent that this would keep me from being the guy who makes the band too loud ;). But I've found that when playing w/o a sound man, this just doesn't work very well...the boosts that I have programmed into my presets are typically not enough to get above the fray, particularly when the CLR was being used as a wedge...so I'm going to try using it in FF mode, sitting behind my like a "regular" guitar cab. At least when we don't have a good sound man.

Anyone else using a CLR--what mode do you use it in and where to you put it? Are you working with or w/o a good sound man who can assist in keeping your level appropriate?

Just how much of a boost I need for solos has been something I've been messing with too, as this has an impact on where you set your levels on your presets. My boosts are typically from a null Filter block, AFTER the cab, set for about 6 dB. I'll typically program preset levels so that most of the time, they're below the line on the level meter, but some notes/chords will drive the level past the line (but not consistently). They'll never reach near the far right end of the meter.

Anyone else -- what's your boost strategy?
 
I set mine at about noon at the start of the show, and bump it up as needed but it usually doesn't go past about 1 o'clock. I put the FRFR (I use an EV LiveX) up about 75% of max on the channel gain and master gain. This setting has worked well without any clipping and gives me enough volume to keep up with a drummer.

Probably what approach works best for you would be influenced by what level you have your presets set to. I think if I maxed the AX8 it owuld clip the input of the speaker.
 
I set my max level on my FRFR and use the output knobs on AX8 to vary the volume. In a live setting where you may not be able to depend on the sound guy, I would set a 3db boost for a boosted lead scene and then maybe filter block or scene controller in two more in increments of 1.5db, totalling 3db for a max of 6db. That way you if you can have 1.5 to 3db of boost available to all scenes and on top of the 3db on your lead scene.

Easiest thing would be a volume pedal, but I'm sure that's been considered.

When going into my Scarlett 2i2 I set the AX8 ouput levels at max. I control the clipping at the input of the 2i2. This get's best unity gain out of the AX8 (I got this from Austin Buddy's video).
 
Unity Gain: a term used when establishing the balance between pieces of audio equipment. The idea is that input should equal output, level-wise. Audio that goes into a device at one level and comes out of that device at the same level is said to be at unity gain.

simply turning up the AX8 output all the way doesn't instantly mean Unity Gain. the levels of the presets need to be a particular level to get that.

i don't know why people want "unity gain" when a guitar's output (which is the AX8's input) is so low.

turn up your speaker to 1/4.
turn up the AX8 to 1/4.
is it loud enough? if yes, you're done. if no:
turn up the AX8 to 1/2
is it loud enough? if yes, you're done. if no:
turn up your speaker to 1/2
is it loud enough? if yes, you're done, if no:
continue to turn up the AX8 or speaker slightly until you get the volume you need. in my opinion, no device should "need" to be turned all the way up. if this is happening, either the balance between your AX8 and Speakers isn't ideal (AX8 all the way up, but speaker barely turned up), or your speaker/amp doesn't output enough power.

this is my approach. once you find the balance, you can remember it and repeat it the next time. in my opinion, it's best to use the AX8 volume knob between the ranges of 9 o clock and 3 o clock, usually averaging around 12 o clock. this gives you a range of use on the volume knob, which is why there is a volume knob. if the AX8 was designed to always have the Output Knob all the way up, then it wouldn't have one at all.

you are allowed to use the range below all the way up. it won't suddenly introduce tons of noise. the tone won't suddenly change to crap.

an abridged version of the procedure above which some people have trouble with is

set the AX8 output to 9 o clock
turn your speaker up to the loudness you need.

that's it. people don't like that method because "omg you're only at 9 o clock on the ax8 dial, it will sound bad with tons of noise." but it doesn't.

compare people's different methods, use what works for you. i personally like being able to adjust my output knobs slightly. when i'm in control of the mixer and PA system, i set my AX8 to 100% just for a consistent level from gig to gig, and i control the levels from the Mixer, as you should. but when you don't have a sound guy that is paying attention or is helpful, sometimes you need some control of your level during the gig, but i do not recommend going from 9 o clock at sound check all the way to 3 o clock because that will probably cause you to clip your channel on the mixer. at that point, you do need to talk to the sound guy or adjust the mixer somehow.
 
...if the AX8 was designed to always have the Output Knob all the way up, then it wouldn't have one at all.
...

Yes exactly. I also like having the ability to bring my volume up easily, when needed, particularly at those gigs where there's no soundman. So for this reason, I want to be able to use the knobs on the front of the AX8 rather than fiddle around with the PA or the knobs on the back of the CLR. That's a large part of why I typically start with the AX8 OUT knobs around 12:00.
 
FRFR or no FRFR...clean sounds must come out without clipping at lead level, then adapt distorted sounds. Generally 0dB at the output VU is OK, keeping some 6-9dB under the hood for more headroom and easier playing. Then adjust CLR level as necessary.
 
I set my max level on my FRFR and use the output knobs on AX8 to vary the volume. In a live setting where you may not be able to depend on the sound guy, I would set a 3db boost for a boosted lead scene and then maybe filter block or scene controller in two more in increments of 1.5db, totalling 3db for a max of 6db. That way you if you can have 1.5 to 3db of boost available to all scenes and on top of the 3db on your lead scene.

Easiest thing would be a volume pedal, but I'm sure that's been considered.

When going into my Scarlett 2i2 I set the AX8 ouput levels at max. I control the clipping at the input of the 2i2. This get's best unity gain out of the AX8 (I got this from Austin Buddy's video).
Yeah I have one expression pedal dedicated to acting as a volume pedal (and another for Wah). I use it with a Pan / Volume block in all my patches (often I prefer it after my pedals and in front of the amp block...sometimes I prefer it after the cab and before wet effects)....so I'm not really using it as a boost.

But...I just had another idea I'm going to try out. I've got a Mission XPBR dial that I use in Ext3, typically for controlling delay level (mix) or pitch/chorus level so I don't have to deep dive into a preset at a gig to make those types of adjustments. I think I'm going to get a second XPBR and use it to control the dB level of the boost that I typically program into my presets (normally, I use a null Filter block with 5-7dB boost). The idea would be to assign the level to the XPBR so each patch gets up to say 7dB boost, which I can dial back with the XPBR from preset to preset or song to song or gig to gig as need be.

FRFR or no FRFR...clean sounds must come out without clipping at lead level, then adapt distorted sounds. Generally 0dB at the output VU is OK, keeping some 6-9dB under the hood for more headroom and easier playing. Then adjust CLR level as necessary.

Yup that's what I shoot for. I program the presets so that with the boost engaged, they tickle the 0 line in the levels meter, typically under it, but occasionally pass it. Never notice clipping. I always check the CLR to make sure I don't clip its channel or overall level either.
 
Unity Gain: a term used when establishing the balance between pieces of audio equipment. The idea is that input should equal output, level-wise. Audio that goes into a device at one level and comes out of that device at the same level is said to be at unity gain.

simply turning up the AX8 output all the way doesn't instantly mean Unity Gain. the levels of the presets need to be a particular level to get that.

i don't know why people want "unity gain" when a guitar's output (which is the AX8's input) is so low.

turn up your speaker to 1/4.
turn up the AX8 to 1/4.
is it loud enough? if yes, you're done. if no:
turn up the AX8 to 1/2
is it loud enough? if yes, you're done. if no:
turn up your speaker to 1/2
is it loud enough? if yes, you're done, if no:
continue to turn up the AX8 or speaker slightly until you get the volume you need. in my opinion, no device should "need" to be turned all the way up. if this is happening, either the balance between your AX8 and Speakers isn't ideal (AX8 all the way up, but speaker barely turned up), or your speaker/amp doesn't output enough power.

this is my approach. once you find the balance, you can remember it and repeat it the next time. in my opinion, it's best to use the AX8 volume knob between the ranges of 9 o clock and 3 o clock, usually averaging around 12 o clock. this gives you a range of use on the volume knob, which is why there is a volume knob. if the AX8 was designed to always have the Output Knob all the way up, then it wouldn't have one at all.

you are allowed to use the range below all the way up. it won't suddenly introduce tons of noise. the tone won't suddenly change to crap.

an abridged version of the procedure above which some people have trouble with is

set the AX8 output to 9 o clock
turn your speaker up to the loudness you need.

that's it. people don't like that method because "omg you're only at 9 o clock on the ax8 dial, it will sound bad with tons of noise." but it doesn't.

compare people's different methods, use what works for you. i personally like being able to adjust my output knobs slightly. when i'm in control of the mixer and PA system, i set my AX8 to 100% just for a consistent level from gig to gig, and i control the levels from the Mixer, as you should. but when you don't have a sound guy that is paying attention or is helpful, sometimes you need some control of your level during the gig, but i do not recommend going from 9 o clock at sound check all the way to 3 o clock because that will probably cause you to clip your channel on the mixer. at that point, you do need to talk to the sound guy or adjust the mixer somehow.

I agree with this, wholeheartedly, when outputting to anything other than my Scarlett 2i2 and into Logic (DAW). Although there isn't much fidelity lost when I don't max the AX8 out I do find there is a noticeable loss of definition to the tone at least to my ears. And I'm strictly speaking about going into this specific piece of gear, then into Logic. Yes, it can be at 9'oclock and I can adjust the input levels at the Scarlett to make up for the difference. But I 'believe' I hear I difference. I'm not sure if my previous post suggested that it was best to max out the output on the AX8 for all things.
 
It is generally accepted in audio and electrical engineering (although it seems to be controversial among guitar players) that in order to get the best signal to noise ratio at the output, you should keep your signal level as high as possible until the end of the signal path. The reason being that if you attenuate a signal only to amplify it later, you will add noise from the amplifier, and any noise that was already there will also be amplified.

But then there are other considerations. If you like to control your FRFR volume using the AX8 Out1 knob, then it does not make sense to start out at max. I used to run Out 1 all the way up into a line input, but then a sound guy thought, the mixer input was hit a little bit too hot, so I turned down to about 3 o'clock. (that's 2-3 dB down). I could not hear any difference, but he was happy, so I went with that.

I don't use FRFRs, but I think, I would still prefer to set Out 1 high, but such that I have enough freedom to turn up, if I need it. The AX8 Out 1 knob is an attenuator, but the volume knob on the FRFR might be as well. It could be that the amplification is always the same, but the volume knob just attenuates the input signal to the amplifier. I have no idea. In that case it might make very little difference, whether you use the AX8 knob or the FRFR volume knob to turn up or down.

Also remember that in a live setting, chances are that whatever noise you have from your AX8+FRFR combo is negligible compared to all the other noise on stage. In the studio, the situation is a little different. I did do a measurement, where I varied the Out 1 settings and compensated with mic pre gain (on my Roland Studio Capture audio interface) to get the same signal level. The measurements fit theory; high Out1 settings give the best signal to noise ratio. However, the signal to noise ratio was still very good at all settings, as long as Out 1 was above 9 o-clock.

Finally, remember that the Out 1 is logarithmic. There is actually very little level difference between setting it at noon and setting it to max (6 dB, if I remember correctly). Below noon, the level drops quite a bit. I do not remember the exact numbers, but I would guess ~60 dB.

EDIT: Here are the numbers, if anyone cares - This is from one of the many heated discussions, we have had over the Out 1 level topic over the years https://forum.fractalaudio.com/threads/ax8-volume-levels.140288/post-1663655
 
I run my CLR at max for channel and master.
I have the AX8 at about 10 o'clock.
This gives me tons of headroom as I use a volume block/pedal after the amp and before the verb/delay.
I also use my guitar volume knob for cleans using the Dirty Shirley at breakup with guitar on 10.
Its important for me to be able to turn my guitar down to 3 and bring back volume with my foot.
With this setup I can have any tone at any volume.
 
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in my opinion, no device should "need" to be turned all the way up. if this is happening, either the balance between your AX8 and Speakers isn't ideal (AX8 all the way up, but speaker barely turned up), or your speaker/amp doesn't output enough power.

Totally agree with this - gotta have some headroom to play with
 
I run my dB technologies Flexsys fm8 at full volume then control the overall volume from my AX8. I usually end up around 10 o’clock on the volume control on the AX8.
 
@kennedydream, then I would suggest, you experiment with running your monitor at a slightly lower volume setting, and the AX8 at a slightly higher volume setting - It will give you better signal to noise ratio, and you should have the same control over your volume (or maybe even better, because your working at volume knob settings, where small changes to the volume knob yield big changes in the volume, the Out 1 knob is more gentle at higher settings)
 
It works for me. All my presets are dialled in so they are around the line on the VU meter on the AX8. With the volume around 10 o’clock on my AX8 and running out of the XLR outs, the level on my Behringer XR18 mixer is hitting around -20 to -15 dB on the level meters. That’s about bang on for where you need to be on a digital mixer.

I run my FM8’s set to full volume running from a pair of Aux sends on the Behringer. I can then control my mix of the band including my guitar using the Behringer Monitor app on my iPhone.
 
It works for me. All my presets are dialled in so they are around the line on the VU meter on the AX8. With the volume around 10 o’clock on my AX8 and running out of the XLR outs, the level on my Behringer XR18 mixer is hitting around -20 to -15 dB on the level meters. That’s about bang on for where you need to be on a digital mixer.

I run my FM8’s set to full volume running from a pair of Aux sends on the Behringer. I can then control my mix of the band including my guitar using the Behringer Monitor app on my iPhone.
Same here. I’m not sure why people think there’s noise at 9 or 10 o clock on the Out knob.
 
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