Used to AxeFx->real cab; having issues dialing in tones with Cab IRs

I've owned an AxeFx for a while, but merely for a pre/power amp sim and have gone through a SS power amp into a real 4x12 (EVM12L/C90). I've had great results with that approach getting nice tones, but I'm starting to get into using the AxeFx direct and having issues dialing in tones from scratch when using the cab IR into my studio monitors. My end goal is to have presets capable of going to FOH direct & record with, but still use the same presets for splitting to a real cab for live on-stage performance. I know that several people use this approach.

I acknowledge that the tone with IR is a 'recorded cab' tone instead of an 'amp-in-the-room' tone, but I'm struggling to dial in tones when there is a cab IR engaged.

I'm going into fairly nice near-field monitors (Yamaha HS80Ms) for this, and have some IRs such as the CK cab pack so I think the IRs that I'm using and ones that are generally regarded and sounding good.

I feel like I have a lot to learn with dialing in tones using cab IRs. What is everyone's workflow? Would it make sense to dial in tones that sound good on a real cab, and then don't touch the amp block anymore and hunt for IRs that sound good. Or is the interaction between the amp and IR significant enough that I need to find a best suited IR and then circle back to the amp and either find common ground between the real cab and IR-cab sounds or make a sacrifice on one of the two output sounds?
 
What aren't you liking with the IRs?


My distorted leads don't seem to saturate and get creamy enough as they do with the real speaker.

There may also be something with the low end response that is different, but i can't put my finger on that one just yet.

Maybe I need to set up an a/b between a near field monitor and my cab to do a direct comparison?
 
I wasn't happy with my clean tone until I shot an IR of the Fender amp I'd used for a decade before getting my AxeFX. Now my AxeFX sounds better than my Fender.
 
this is just my opinion but it sounds like you are describing missing speaker breakup.

Again only my opinion but I don't think you can achieve this with IRs and is why so many 25 watt greenback lovers stay with using a real cab over IRs.
 
this is just my opinion but it sounds like you are describing missing speaker breakup.

Again only my opinion but I don't think you can achieve this with IRs and is why so many 25 watt greenback lovers stay with using a real cab over IRs.

Except that EVM12L/C90s don't break up much, if at all. Also, there is simulated speaker breakup in the Spkr page of the amp block if you want it.
 
I've owned an AxeFx for a while, but merely for a pre/power amp sim and have gone through a SS power amp into a real 4x12 (EVM12L/C90). I've had great results with that approach getting nice tones, but I'm starting to get into using the AxeFx direct and having issues dialing in tones from scratch when using the cab IR into my studio monitors. My end goal is to have presets capable of going to FOH direct & record with, but still use the same presets for splitting to a real cab for live on-stage performance. I know that several people use this approach.

I acknowledge that the tone with IR is a 'recorded cab' tone instead of an 'amp-in-the-room' tone, but I'm struggling to dial in tones when there is a cab IR engaged.

I'm going into fairly nice near-field monitors (Yamaha HS80Ms) for this, and have some IRs such as the CK cab pack so I think the IRs that I'm using and ones that are generally regarded and sounding good.

I feel like I have a lot to learn with dialing in tones using cab IRs. What is everyone's workflow? Would it make sense to dial in tones that sound good on a real cab, and then don't touch the amp block anymore and hunt for IRs that sound good. Or is the interaction between the amp and IR significant enough that I need to find a best suited IR and then circle back to the amp and either find common ground between the real cab and IR-cab sounds or make a sacrifice on one of the two output sounds?

I've got almost the exact same goals as you and have also been having the exact same issues with playing FRFR as opposed to power amp + cabs.
The main differences are that I'm using 1 X 12 open back cabs and I'm only using 12Ls and no C90s.
The issue for me is that while there are indeed some very good IRs of 12Ls and C90s floating around out there, none of them is as satisfying to play with through my CLR Active Neo wedges and/or HS80Ms compared to my real cabs.
Every time I think I'm getting close, with this or that IR (including those I've taken of my own cabs) or this or that IR mix, when I listen to it the next day I realize that it's just not a sound I'd ever want to play live with, not when my real 12Ls sound and feel so much better.

Funnily though I don't mind it nearly as much if I'm recording.
The Axe direct via IRs is a bit more satisfying to me on stereo near-field monitors when heard in the context of a mix than it is through one or 2 designed-for-far-field-listening CLRs at a rehearsal or a gig.
The biggest part of that is probably wholly psychological, I admit.
I've always thought of the recording process as being a compromise with the engineer's goal being to try to squeeze my real sound down to some sort of a facsimile that works in the mix w/o sounding too dissimilar to what I really sound like.
I.e. I'm used to tracking feeling and sounding like a compromise, but I can't yet get used to feeling that way when I'm playing live.
The rest of it has to do with the impossibility, supposedly, of reproducing the "amp-in-the-room" feel from an FRFR monitor.
But I still feel like I'll need to get a lot closer before *I'll* ever gig (unless I'm playing music I don't particularly care much about) with an FRFR system.

For me it's mostly in the way my 12Ls reproduce the attack, especially in the top end, in my Presets especially ones designed for my Strats.
The 12Ls are really bright but also very musical and satisfying.
Whenever I try to get that same type of sibilance via an IR it always comes out seriously wanting, especially the way the attack transients feel at my eardrums.
But there are issues with my dark hyper-clean jazz tones not sounding full enough with IRs as well.

Because I'm so locked into the tones I use through my power amp + cabs rig I need a single Cab Block setup that sounds strong across all those same Presets.
I.e. I don't want to deal with a different Cab Block setup for each Preset.
My feeling is that if my real 12Ls do such a good job across all these Presets (there's really only 10 of them at this point - 5 for my Strats and 5 for my humbucker-equipped guitars) then so should a single Global Cab Block.
Eventually I'll veer away from this way of doing things, but for now this is my goal.

So to the OP...
My current best bet that I only arrived at yesterday - but it still sounds OK to me today (lol) - involves one of the Ownhammer V1 Thiele Cab 12L IRs.
A single 12L in a Thiele Cab sounds a lot different than your 4 X 12 cab with a mix of 12Ls and C90s but it's probably closer than an IR of an open back cab.
Of course you'll have to buy the collection from OH to find out.
The IR I'm using is the TC30 #1 IR (taken with a high-end test mic).
In theory, that alone should sound just like a real 12L, frequency-response-wise, but it's a little bit flat and uninteresting sounding and can use a bit more top end and low end girth.
[TC30 IRs never sound as good as I expect or hope for them to.]
So I actually use the SM57 mic sim in the Axe's Cab Block.
I change the Proximity Frequency to 200hz to add some fullness in the upper-lows and boost the Proximity to about 6.5 from its default of 5.0.
I don't use the Low or High Cut features at all with this IR.
In fact I'm adding highs with the mic sim and lows with the Proximity effect.
[This way of doing it actually sounds better to me than the OH IRs that were actually taken of the same cab with a SM57.
Go figure.
I'm finding that more often that I'd like to, with the Axe I have to try things that wouldn't make sense with the actual gear vs the virtual gear.
Think outside of the box, and all that crap....]

Rather than use the Axe-FXII .syx IRs that OH includes with the purchase, I used Cab Lab to create both UR and SR IRs from the .wav file of this IR which is also included in the purchase.
The .wav files are actually about 120ms long so they *can* benefit from using the Ultra Res technology to some degree.
But I'm using a Standard Res Stereo Cab Block type because the new Stereo Ultra Res Cab Block type takes me into too much CPU usage with the Layouts I need to use.
I think I actually like the SR Stereo Cab for this application more than the UR Stereo Cab though.
It seems a bit less present on the top end and a bit warmer on the bottom.

You might also look into the 12L IRs of a 4 X 12 cab inside one of the Fractal Cab Packs, I forget which one though.
I think OH has some 4 X 12 12L IRs too.
Red Wirez also has some good C90 IRs in the Speakerbox series.
No 4 X 12s, I don't think, but there are some in closed back Mesa 2 X 12 cabs.

Good luck.
 
My distorted leads don't seem to saturate and get creamy enough as they do with the real speaker.

There may also be something with the low end response that is different, but i can't put my finger on that one just yet.

Maybe I need to set up an a/b between a near field monitor and my cab to do a direct comparison?

I was gonna suggest this along with shooting an IR of your cabinet (s). I always run a 4x12 on stage along with a CLR going direct to FOH. I spent some time A/B ing my cabs to IRs with the CLR and while some were close (and good) nothing was what I wanted. I ended up shooting several IRs of my cab and did a mix with CabLab which got me where I wanted to be. It's very cool when I stand on stage in between the cab behind me and the CLR in front of me and hear a huge sound field that is my sound. I also get that sound to FOH. If you didn't want to mess with shooting your own IRs, I would recommend getting CabLab and checking out some 3rd party IRs. Get a mix that you like. I have no doubt that you would.
I also agree that you may want to tweak the Motor Drive in the speaker tab along with using the preamp as well with some drive and saturation.
 
I once shot an IR of a cab, then set up a preset where one output was into a power amp, same guitar cab and the same mic into my DAW, and the other through a cab block then direct into my DAW and recorded both inputs simultaneously; I was very impressed with how, essentially, identical they sounded when tracked. The thing with that IR is that it sounded like my guitar - it sounded like what I expect to hear when I mic up my rig and lay down guitar tracks. Was that IR as good as the ones in the Axe or third-party cab bundles? Highly doubtful, but it sounded "right" to my ears. I dialed up all kind of cabs and was never satisfied until I made my own IR simply because my ears and brain were saying "no, that's not what my guitar sounds like".

So, you may find that making your own IR of your own rig, cab and chosen mic placement goes a long way towards sounding the way you want (and/or expect) your guitar to sound. And of course, part of the art of recording guitars is working with just how different a guitar sounds on "tape" than in the room, and what tricks to employ to transform a good in-the-room sound to a good on-the-tape sound, which may include tweaks to gain and eq on the amp ("real" or Axe Fx amp block). Starting with your own IR at least gives you a baseline tonality. The thing to keep in mind is that chasing the live sound you want out of an amp and guitar speaker at the same time that you're trying to chase the "perfect" direct sound can lead you in frustrating circles. So my suggestion is:

1) dial in the amp + guitar speaker tone you want (remembering that a guitar on its own is a bad way to dial in your rig)
2) shoot an IR - something like an SM57 is a good choice since 99% of the time this is what a sound guy at a venue or your average studio is going to stick in front of your cab
3) Listen to some tracks using that IR and say to yourself, "Okay. This IS what my rig sounds like through a mic and my monitors. Period." It's key to get that baseline in your head and to resign yourself to how different it's going to sound
4) Now, tweak your personal cab block if you feel the need, but keep in mind you are hearing what it sounds like through your HS80M's. It won't sound like that through a club's PA, your neighbors iPod, or the crappy computer speakers sitting on my desk at work.

And, 3a) if you don't like how it sounds when tracked to "tape", then consider taking a step back and looking at your guitar tone. Is it too bassy? Does it actually blend in well in a band/mix context? Is excessive gain blurring some tone or articulation in your sound? Not to say the answer isn't actually "yes, everything is dialed in; my live sound works great" - it's just a good time to double check, before you dive into step 4.
 
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Thanks for everyone's insight. There are some good suggestions in here for me to try. I'll work on getting an IR of my cab.

Do I need to worry about room treatment for capturing a cab IR, or is the impulse time short enough that room reflections aren't significant for cab IRs?


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Ultrares IR is long enough to capture the first reflections, but since the mic is very close to the speaker, they will not be heard too much.
 
Ultrares IR is long enough to capture the first reflections, but since the mic is very close to the speaker, they will not be heard too much.

That said, try to get a relatively dry room. I recently tried shooting an IR of a cab in a large rehearsal space with extra reverberous walls (think slap back delay territory). The IR was completely unusable, even with the mic right up on the grill.

That said, there's a possibility of user error, but I've shot several other IRs in other environments to much greater success.
 
Ultrares IR is long enough to capture the first reflections, but since the mic is very close to the speaker, they will not be heard too much.

When doing all the IRs I've shot of my own cabs I've had to have the back of the cab quite close to a wall in my 12" X 12" approx bedroom.
I simply have no other suitable place to do it.
Is being too close to a wall an issue?
 
I've spent so many hours going through IR's, I finally got fed up and just picked one that came closest to the sound I was looking for and used EQ and advanced parameters to get it to where I wanted. I was spending more time trying IR's than playing, and that's not good. It's totally a matter of personal taste, but I've never found one that I thought sounded perfect, with no tweaking required.
 
I use the PT ir in almost all ir combos i use. I think i have a 1x12 tweed cab or something in a couple of presets, but i spend no time with ir's.
Imho most ir's i have tried are to dark and sound weird alone. Almost out of phase or someting.. With PT involved, it sounds like i want it too.

Maybe i should update my OH library to Ultra res... I spend most of my time playing. Messing around with ir's and amps are just for fun. And it is fun for me at least :)
 
I use the PT ir in almost all ir combos i use. I think i have a 1x12 tweed cab or something in a couple of presets, but i spend no time with ir's.
Imho most ir's i have tried are to dark and sound weird alone. Almost out of phase or someting.. With PT involved, it sounds like i want it too.

Maybe i should update my OH library to Ultra res... I spend most of my time playing. Messing around with ir's and amps are just for fun. And it is fun for me at least :)

What's "the PT ir"?
 
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