Unwanted behaviour with default scene and MIDI (?)

Sebastian

Power User
Hi folks,

so far I didn't use the scenes in the Axe-Fx II & III, as I did all the programming (bypass states and channels) in my MIDI controller. But as I got the impression that scenes and their editing in Axe-Edit have come a long way, I'll probably change over to do what's possible with scenes and reserve the more complex stuff for the controller.

So today I created a new patch for a song with five scenes. There's also a bank for the song on my controller with one switch for each scene.
To make sure I always activate the scene and the correct patch, the switches always send the (same) program change, as well as the scene change.

Now about the unwanted behaviour. "Ignore redundant PC" is on, as I don't want to have the patch reloaded every time.
Despite this, the "Default Scene" is activated nonetheless. So if I'm switching to any other than the default scene, the default scene gets activated for a very short time, before the Axe-Fx changes to the one I sent the MIDI control change for. This is also visible on the Home screen.

Is this behaviour on purpose? If yes, I would like to turn it off, similar to the "ignore redundant PC".
To me it appears as if it got overlooked. When I defeat the reload of the current patch by "Ignore redundant PC", I expect this to be true for not reloading the default scene, too.

I can avoid this by having my controller not send the same program change again, but as I said, I'm curious if the current behaviour is as expected or intended.

Best regards,
Sebastian
 
This sounds as expected. I use ableton live to control scene changes after I've loaded a preset, but I only load the preset once. I've never had an issue where I have to keep sending a PC when I want a scene change...I just send the corresponding CC# + value for the scene I want.
 
Do you maybe have PC Mapping enabled?

The Ignore Redundant PC should ignore the PC and thus should also not load the default scene.

However, typically the use of scene switches is "global" and you shouldn't need (or want) to send the PC. Only the scene change...
 
Are you saying, (for example) you're on scene 2, and want to change to scene 3, you will send both the preset and scene change messages?
This results in you seeing a change first to scene 1, then to scene 3? Is that right?

Your preset has a default scene (scene 1 unless you changed it), so the PC message isn't actually redundant at all.

I think it's working as expected for the messages you are sending.

Do you have to send the PC messages?
I understand the desire, but just wondering how often you jump straight into scenes other than 1.

It would be ideal to send a single message for preset and scene, but I don't think that's supported
 
Thank you all for the answers.

You're right, sending the program change one time and then just scene changes should be enough most of the time and would of course avoid the unwanted behaviour.
I chose to include the PC everytime to make sure I get to the right patch, whatever scene I might select first. So it doesn't matter what patch I'm currently on - I always recall the correct scene in the correct patch.

As you said, unix-guy:"The Ignore Redundant PC should ignore the PC and thus should also not load the default scene."
This is my notion, too. Not reloading the patch per ignoring the PC should also not reload the default scene. Yet it does.

Maybe M@ can chime in. IMHO this behaviour is not correct, but I wouldn't be surprised if it is deliberately done this way. Perhaps some users/artists prefer it like this.
 
You're right, sending the program change one time and then just scene changes should be enough most of the time and would of course avoid the unwanted behaviour.

I have found that sending PC once and then only scene changes doesn't work most of the time...it works every time. Are you experiencing something different?

It sounds like you're saying that you send a scene change (CC#) and every now and then it changes the preset? If that's the case I think something is wrong with the midi clip in Ableton. The AX3 is behaving as expected from what I'm hearing so far.
 
The only quirk I have found, and it is unique, is using a backing track that has multiple presets and scene changes. Manually placing the indicator in another point of the song (to practice or something) will change scenes on the wrong preset if you didn't get to where the previous preset triggered. This is logical because a scene change is a scene change. It doesn't know what preset you are in. However it has made me, in certain songs intentionally place the preset and scene in the MIDI event.

Not a great deal different than dealing with MIDI bank changes if using multiple banks.
 
I have found that sending PC once and then only scene changes doesn't work most of the time...it works every time. Are you experiencing something different?

It sounds like you're saying that you send a scene change (CC#) and every now and then it changes the preset? If that's the case I think something is wrong with the midi clip in Ableton. The AX3 is behaving as expected from what I'm hearing so far.

Please excuse, but your first sentence doesn't make sense to me. Furthermore, neither am I using Ableton, nor is this about the AX3.
I think I've explained clearly what I'm doing and the way the Axe-Fx III reacts is also understood; it's no mystery. The question is: is this behaviour known and deliberately chosen, or is it rather a bug and got overlooked? Only Fractal Audio can say for sure.

The only quirk I have found, and it is unique, is using a backing track that has multiple presets and scene changes. Manually placing the indicator in another point of the song (to practice or something) will change scenes on the wrong preset if you didn't get to where the previous preset triggered. This is logical because a scene change is a scene change. It doesn't know what preset you are in. However it has made me, in certain songs intentionally place the preset and scene in the MIDI event.

Not a great deal different than dealing with MIDI bank changes if using multiple banks.

Your example is comparable to why I chose to send a program change together with the scene change: to be sure I change the scene and recall the correct patch if it's not the one im currently on.

For my current application (one patch for one song) I could probably leave the program change to the first scene I use in the patch (=in the song) and then just send scene changes, as I stay in the patch until the end of the song.

But the program change is needed when I freely jump patches and scenes. For example, let's have different patches, because they use very different routing and blocks, Scenes are used for the usual clean, rhythm, solo etc. You'd want to go directly from any scene in one patch to any scene in the other patch. For this, you need to always send the program change together with the scene change.
 
You're right - I was reading into your issue a bit using my own experience. I've gone back and re-read your posts and yes this seems like it could be a bug, BUT there is this statement in the manual under the section about ignoring redundant PC

"When PC mapping is used, if the current Scene has changed, the preset will not reload but the Scene will still revert to that set in the map."

Not sure if you are using PC mapping or have it enabled. If you're not, this indeed sounds like strange behavior.
 
Thanks for the manual quote, I did not know about this. I do not use PC mapping though, so I guess this should have no effect.
 
Can you write up the simplest steps to reproduce the trouble please? When it comes to the issue, write what you expect, and what happens instead.
 
@Fotukito
Hey. thank you. This is indeed the same issue. Cliff answered in your thread that the behaviour was by design, though I don't get the explanation:
With "Ignore redundant PC" = off, the patch gets reloaded but with an audible dropout; with "Ignore redundant PC" = on the patch still gets reloaded (incl. the default scene), but without the dropout (?)

@Admin M@
Thanks so much for chiming in. Here's the situation and the steps:

Global:
  • no PC Mapping active
  • Ignore Redundant PC = on
  • default scene = as saved

Patch #21 (on bank D):
  • five scenes configured
  • patch saved on scene #1, which makes it the default scene

3rd party MIDI controller:
  • five switches programmed, one for each of the aforementioned scenes
  • each switch sending:
- CC# 0, value 3​
- PC# 21​
- CC# 13 (= the number I chose for selecting scenes), value = (Scene number -1)​

What happens:
- the switch with scene #1 works as expected:
- if I'm on another patch, it recalls patch #21 and scene #1​
- if I'm already on patch #21 but on another scene, it just recalls scene #1​
- if I'm already on patch #21 and on scene #1, nothing happens​
- the other switches work like this:
- if I'm on another patch, they recall patch #21 and the scene I programmed them for. I guess the default scene is recalled briefly before this, as the Axe-Fx needs to load some scene when it changes to a patch. so that's ok.​
- if I'm already on patch #21 but on another scene, the default scene is briefly loaded before the correct = programmed scene gets loaded.​
- if I'm already on patch #21 and on the correct scene (which renders pressing the switch useless, I know), still the default scene gets briefly loaded before switching back to the correct = programmed scene.​

The last two points are what I consider the issue: patch #21 is already active, so "Ignore redundant PC = on" should avoid reloading the patch and should avoid reloading the default scene as well. Yet the latter does happen.
You can notice this on the home screen. When any other than scene #1 is recalled, scene #1 briefly becomes active, visible by the blue background of the scene name. After that, the correct scene becomes active.

I hope this is simple enough, despite all the text, but I wanted to avoid any misunderstandings.
 
I committed to using PC Mapping a year ago; it is working very well, and thus I no longer have a need for ‘Ignore Redundant PC’ without PC Mapping. But here’s some thoughts that might help.

Why a stateless preset/scene selection is useful…

All our gigging songs use backing tracks with Axe preset/scene changes pre-programmed via an upstream MIDI controller (BandHelper). Though most songs use scenes from within a single preset, in some cases they will use scenes from different presets.

When changing to a next scene, reloading some default scene along the way would be untenable. It really needs to only load that next scene as quickly as possible.

Also, when programming preset/scene selections, I don’t want to deal with the complication of knowing what preset/scene it is coming from, when selecting a next preset/scene… i.e., I want it to be stateless. Said another way, I don’t want to have to use different MIDI sequences to select a preset/scene depending on the previous preset/scene; too many chances for errors and a maintenance headache.

(BTW, PC Mapping is stateless and thus works very well, given I only really need about 25 total scenes across a 70 song repertoire when gigging with our automated system. And when recording or just messing around, I can always manually select any preset/scene.)

Why ‘Ignore Redundant PC’ could almost work…

If Ignore Redundant PC worked like I had expected it to, then a preset/scene selection pair (Program Change + CC Scene Select) could be the complete and direct ‘stateless’ selection I need, presuming it avoided the interim loading of a default scene (as @Sebastian noted above).

However, it still wouldn’t work as needed in situations where you need to change to a scene in a different preset mid-song, since the Program Change for that new preset would not be ‘redundant’ and thus it would need to load a default scene momentarily before processing the following CC scene selection.

A new feature that would work without PC Mapping…

Imagine some new preference for MIDI controlled preset/scene selection behavior: ‘Change Only on Scene Select’. When enabled:
  1. A Program Change for a preset would do nothing immediately to change the active preset/scene; it would only register internally as ‘this is the preset to be used if and when a subsequent scene select is received’.
  2. Scenes would actually change only when receiving a CC scene selection.
This approach would provide the following benefits for users like me who control the Axe through a pre-programmed MIDI controller:
  • Avoid disruptive loading of a default scene
  • Allow full preset/scene addressing (avoiding the 128 limit of PC Mapping)
  • Avoid the extra PC Mapping maintenance steps of deciding which scenes get PC assignments
  • Allow use of the preset/scene selection as a stateless MIDI message pair
  • Allow for precise scene change timing, knowing the CC scene selection is what really invokes the change
Reiterating: PC Mapping works fine for me, but if I didn’t use it I would need some new feature like above; even ‘Ignore Redundant PC’ working like I had expected wouldn’t have quite met the objectives.
 
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