Unnatural sounding 'fizz' on sustained notes

[skolacki]

Is there a way to tame this effect?
Do all models behave the same way or do they follow the examples you’ve modeled?

I’m not debating whether real amp fizz on decay, they do. I just feel the fractal emphasizes it.

Yeah it does seem to be emphasized. I don’t hate it and in a mix it sounds right. But almost too much by itself. It’s been awhile since I cranked my amps. I know they have the same characteristics but on the amps it’s easy to ignore. Not so much on the modeler. I get that it’s because of amp through speakers vs mics and IR’s but it would be awesome if it could tamed a bit.

Edit: dropping bias excursion does take some of the fizz and noise out. But that also changes other things. It’s subtle like a lot of these parameters are. Sounds better turned up.

 

[Jim Amsden]

It's possible there is some variation between amplifiers, or even the same amplifier with different tubes in how the tone decays as the amp recovers. While I agree this is incredibly well done and accurate modeling, I also agree that there may be situations where less of these artifacts might be desirable. Running clean amps with lots of headroom and using pedals for distortion might be an option.

Ultimately the digital domain should give us more flexibility in tone than we could get from the analog world of our more limited amps. That can help make up for some of the perceived loss when moving from real amps to modelers.

 

[simeon]

i love the fizz and crackle and often find myself wanting more of it. i was listening to highway to hell the other day and the tones on that album are just amazing. it's the "drrrrrr" on the decay as well...

 

[Cuiken]

It's possible there is some variation between amplifiers, or even the same amplifier with different tubes in how the tone decays as the amp recovers. While I agree this is incredibly well done and accurate modeling, I also agree that there may be situations where less of these artifacts might be desirable. Running clean amps with lots of headroom and using pedals for distortion might be an option.

To my ear at least, running clean amps with drive pedals in front actually worsens the effect. Not sure why that would be.

 

[Cuiken]

I had a bit of time to play today and used a guitar with some humbuckers for the first time with the fractal. Has to be said, using humbuckers does seem to have increased the 'fizz'.

Settings below used to create attached audio file. Effect definitely seems more pronounced in the audio file when listening to it at lower levels so have a play with the volume that you are listening with.

I guess my question is whether this seems normal for the Fractal? As others have said, the effect does some a bit more pronounced than with other modellers with IRs that I have used (Boss GT1000, Strymon Iridium for example).

 

[Dave Merrill]

I suspect other modelers airbrush things a bit because they think we want that, while Cliff ships us as close to the real thing as he can figure out, because he thinks we want that

 

[Cuiken]

I suspect other modelers airbrush things a bit because they think we want that, while Cliff ships us as close to the real thing as he can figure out, because he thinks we want that

Yeah, could be true. I guess my main concern is just whether this is normal for a Fractal (in which case I'm happy to accept it as intended) or whether there might be an issue with my unit or how I've set up the input somehow.

If you have time to take a listen to the audio file and see what you think, that'd be helpful. Thanks.

 

[Rex]

It’s been awhile since I cranked my amps. I know they have the same characteristics but on the amps it’s easy to ignore. Not so much on the modeler.

That’s because we usually play actual tube amps cranked loud. Modelers are usually played less loud, because that’s way less fatiguing to the ears, and we still get that pushed-power-amp tone.

When we’re playing cranked up, our ears accept all kinds of artifacts, compression and weirdness as “part of the loud,” because our ears can’t really handle way-loud sounds. At more moderate volumes, we tend to pick the tones apart more, and we get more critical of them.

 

[Rex]

I had a bit of time to play today and used a guitar with some humbuckers for the first time with the fractal. Has to be said, using humbuckers does seem to have increased the 'fizz'.

Settings below used to create attached audio file. Effect definitely seems more pronounced in the audio file when listening to it at lower levels so have a play with the volume that you are listening with.

I guess my question is whether this seems normal for the Fractal? As others have said, the effect does some a bit more pronounced than with other modellers with IRs that I have used (Boss GT1000, Strymon Iridium for example).

View attachment 148409

Your clip sounds like a real amp to me. Try those settings with a real Bassman, and you’ll get the same thing. Crank up to gig volume, and you might not notice the fizz at all. Play it cranked with a band behind you, and that fizz will help your notes stand out. In a busy mix, that “fizz” will sound like “clarity.”

Also, you have Treble Gain turned up, but you have Normal Gain rolled all the way off. That will emphasize the fizz.

 

[skolacki]

I had a bit of time to play today and used a guitar with some humbuckers for the first time with the fractal. Has to be said, using humbuckers does seem to have increased the 'fizz'.

Settings below used to create attached audio file. Effect definitely seems more pronounced in the audio file when listening to it at lower levels so have a play with the volume that you are listening with.

I guess my question is whether this seems normal for the Fractal? As others have said, the effect does some a bit more pronounced than with other modellers with IRs that I have used (Boss GT1000, Strymon Iridium for example).

View attachment 148409

Not a lot of fizz on that to my ears. Sounds normal to me.

 

[John Lerro]

I suspect other modelers airbrush things a bit because they think we want that, while Cliff ships us as close to the real thing as he can figure out, because he thinks we want that

I'm speculating of course, but I suspect it's less a matter of whitewashing and more a matter of not being willing or even capable of this level of complexity. Real is better. Remember when the Marshall TSL came out? Endless complaining regarding the fizz and mods to tame it. We can simply switch to another amp model if we don't like it.

 

[Cuiken]

Further observatoion after a bit more play time.

I tend to take a clean preset and then crank it to get a crunch tone (or just add a drive pedal). Either way though, the Master Volume on many clean models is often set at 100% (often because the original amp didn't have a Master Volume). I've been leaving this at 100% and just turning down the output volume to compensate for the cranked gain.

As a result, by adding gain/drive to the front of the amp I'm make the amp model 'louder' and pushing the power stage harder. This is causing the model to produce power stage distortion/clipping which is, generally, a bit 'fuzzy' comparared to preamp distortion (as it is not EQ'd by subsequent amp stages).

Fairly obvious but, by rolling the master volume back a bit, much of the fizz just dissipates.

Also, the amp models that I experience as being 'fizzy' tend to be classic clean Fender type models where distortion is more typically from the power stage. It's fair to argue that, maybe, I just don't love the sound of a clean fender amp pushed into power stage clipping.

All of this sits well with the statement that the Fractal models the amp properly and some amps get 'fizzy' when driven very loud. Perhaps I just need to figure out which models I actually prefer.

I'll keep playing.

 

[sprint]

Further observatoion after a bit more play time.

I tend to take a clean preset and then crank it to get a crunch tone (or just add a drive pedal). Either way though, the Master Volume on many clean models is often set at 100% (often because the original amp didn't have a Master Volume). I've been leaving this at 100% and just turning down the output volume to compensate for the cranked gain.

As a result, by adding gain/drive to the front of the amp I'm make the amp model 'louder' and pushing the power stage harder. This is causing the model to produce power stage distortion/clipping which is, generally, a bit 'fuzzy' comparared to preamp distortion (as it is not EQ'd by subsequent amp stages).

Fairly obvious but, by rolling the master volume back a bit, much of the fizz just dissipates.

Also, the amp models that I experience as being 'fizzy' tend to be classic clean Fender type models where distortion is more typically from the power stage. It's fair to argue that, maybe, I just don't love the sound of a clean fender amp pushed into power stage clipping.

All of this sits well with the statement that the ractal models the amp properly and some amps get 'fizzy' when driven very loud. Perhaps I just need to figure out which models I actually prefer.

I'll keep playing.

Check out the "Band Commander" model on the low input (Input Trim=0.5) for loads of clean clean headroom.

 

[Cuiken]

Check out the "Band Commander" model on the low input (Input Trim=0.5) for loads of clean clean headroom.

Agreed, it's superb. Also love the simple Deluxe Verb. Keep the bright switch off and roll back the Master Volume. When you increse the input Gain, the tone just thickens up rather than starting to break up. Not found another modeller that manages that.

It's the early breakup 'crunch' tones I'm not yet managing to find though. Any tips for a good starting point on these would be gratefully received.

Ta.

 

[sprint]

Agreed, it's superb. Also love the simple Deluxe Verb. Keep the bright switch off and roll back the Master Volume. When you increse the input Gain, the tone just thickens up rather than starting to break up. Not found another modeller that manages that.

It's the early breakup 'crunch' tones I'm not yet managing to find though. Any tips for a good starting point on these would be gratefully received.

Ta.

Just to eliminate a couple of unlikely possibilities that have happened to me and sound very similar the kind of amp fizz character discussed here, you might quickly check:

• That your input1 instrument sensitivity level is not too hot - at one point this was causing some very low level input clipping on my hottest guitar that could be mistaken for the fizz expected from the models.
• If routing sound to an audio interface via s/pdif, that the handshake between Axefx and Audio interface is correct. I check this by listening through headphones attached to Axefx vs attached to the audio interface - the 2 should match wrt any slight fizz heard with decaying notes, but, in my setup, once in a blue moon, I find my audio interface adding a very slight clipping that's resolved by restarting Axfx then Audio interface.

Other than that I don't have any suggestions to tame it as I tend to like it - in fact, I'll turn on some "Air" in the cab block @ 5500hz to get more of it, and into this territory (ya baby!) >>

 

[Darrin66]

Your clip sounds like a real amp to me. Try those settings with a real Bassman, and you’ll get the same thing. Crank up to gig volume, and you might not notice the fizz at all. Play it cranked with a band behind you, and that fizz will help your notes stand out. In a busy mix, that “fizz” will sound like “clarity.”

Also, you have Treble Gain turned up, but you have Normal Gain rolled all the way off. That will emphasize the fizz.

How does having the Normal Gain rolled off emphasize fizz? Serious question.

 

[Rex]

How does having the Normal Gain rolled off emphasize fizz? Serious question.

The preset has a lot of Treble Gain dialed in, but no Normal Gain at all. That emphasizes higher frequencies.

 

[Cuiken]

The preset has a lot of Treble Gain dialed in, but no Normal Gain at all. That emphasizes higher frequencies.

FYI on this, swapping Treble Gain for Normal Gain made no difference to the 'fizz' I'm hearing.

If anything, it seems more prominent when using Normal Gain as the higher frequency distortion artefacts (of which the fizz is one component) stand out further against a less bright guitar tone. Reducing amp treble gain (via choice of gain knob or EQ) does little to affect the 'fizz' so, as I say, less bright tones seem worse.

I think that is probably what is bugging me. 'Fizz' is, for sure, a normal artefact of amp distortion and all modellers have it. I've downloaded a couple of Neural DSP plugins for comparison and it's present in their models too. However, with these plugins it just seems more 'integrated' into the overall tone of the amp while, on my FM9, the fizz 'floats' above the guitar tone somehow and sounds/feels quite seperate. I guess that's why I experience it as being a bit unnatural.

I'll keep tweaking but, I have to say, I'm not getting on with it at all. All my crunch tones end up having a 'fuzz' quality to them that I'm just not looking for.

 

[skolacki]

I'll keep tweaking but, I have to say, I'm not getting on with it at all. All my crunch tones end up having a 'fuzz' quality to them that I'm just not looking for.

You should try out a power amp into a cab if you haven’t. Might not bug you as much. That clip you posted really wasn’t very fizzy so you might be over sensitive to it. The first time I heard it, it bugged me but after a while it stopped bothering me.

 

[FractalAudio]

FYI on this, swapping Treble Gain for Normal Gain made no difference to the 'fizz' I'm hearing.

If anything, it seems more prominent when using Normal Gain as the higher frequency distortion artefacts (of which the fizz is one component) stand out further against a less bright guitar tone. Reducing amp treble gain (via choice of gain knob or EQ) does little to affect the 'fizz' so, as I say, less bright tones seem worse.

I think that is probably what is bugging me. 'Fizz' is, for sure, a normal artefact of amp distortion and all modellers have it. I've downloaded a couple of Neural DSP plugins for comparison and it's present in their models too. However, with these plugins it just seems more 'integrated' into the overall tone of the amp while, on my FM9, the fizz 'floats' above the guitar tone somehow and sounds/feels quite seperate. I guess that's why I experience it as being a bit unnatural.

I'll keep tweaking but, I have to say, I'm not getting on with it at all. All my crunch tones end up having a 'fuzz' quality to them that I'm just not looking for.

You'd probably be happier with a Quad Cortex. Our modeling stresses accuracy. The "fizz", as you call it, is caused by power tube grid clipping and has a somewhat disassociated quality.