Unity Gain with Palm Mutes

CactusTone

CactusTone

Inspired
I'm trying to tame the dB spike when palm muting without sacrificing the thump. Most currently, I'm playing around with the 7.02 Beta Brit Pre; going for an 80's Maiden-ish tone (Powerslave/Somewhere In Time). As a side note, is it just me or does the 7.02 not sound phenomenal with almost no tweaking for this type of tone?! Thanks, Cliff! Unity gain is easy for non-palm muted chords, but the moment I start chugging the dB spikes over 9db!!! I expect a little spike, but that's too much for my headroom needs. As soon as I boost with a filter block (+4dB), I'm clipping the output. Suggestions? Cheers!
 
CactusTone said:
I'm trying to tame the dB spike when palm muting without sacrificing the thump. Most currently, I'm playing around with the 7.02 Beta Brit Pre; going for an 80's Maiden-ish tone (Powerslave/Somewhere In Time). As a side note, is it just me or does the 7.02 not sound phenomenal with almost no tweaking for this type of tone?! Thanks, Cliff! Unity gain is easy for non-palm muted chords, but the moment I start chugging the dB spikes over 9db!!! I expect a little spike, but that's too much for my headroom needs. As soon as I boost with a filter block (+4dB), I'm clipping the output. Suggestions? Cheers!
Click to expand...
I have experienced the same, but not that much of a spike. On my high gain patches, with open chords around 0 db my palm muted chords spike at about 5-6 db. This is without the beta installed. Other people on the forum have experienced similar things as well, so I didn't think much about it.

i am surprised that you are clipping the output though. I thought the Axe Fx had 20db of headroom from the 0db mark. Maybe I'm wrong...
 
E-Sound said:
I have experienced the same, but not that much of a spike. On my high gain patches, with open chords around 0 db my palm muted chords spike at about 5-6 db. This is without the beta installed. Other people on the forum have experienced similar things as well, so I didn't think much about it.

i am surprised that you are clipping the output though. I thought the Axe Fx had 20db of headroom from the 0db mark. Maybe I'm wrong...
Click to expand...
It's possible I'm hitting occasional 20dB spikes with the boost engaged. It doesn't clip on every attack, nor on every palm muted note, but it does clip frequently enough that it's an issue needing resolution.
 
CactusTone said:
It's possible I'm hitting occasional 20dB spikes with the boost engaged. It doesn't clip on every attack, nor on every palm muted note, but it does clip frequently enough that it's an issue needing resolution.
Click to expand...
Are you sure you're not clipping further down the line, after the axe fx? For example in to audio interface, mixer, DAW? The axe fx has a pretty hot output and can easily clip the input of a mixer if the pad-button is not engaged. Does the "Out 1 clip" led light up? Everything ok with the input levels (tickling the red)? Have you tried low cut in the cab block to remove some of the lowest lows?
 
CactusTone said:
I'm trying to tame the dB spike when palm muting without sacrificing the thump.
Click to expand...
That spike is the thump.


CactusTone said:
As a side note, is it just me or does the 7.02 not sound phenomenal with almost no tweaking for this type of tone?!
Click to expand...
It does. :)


CactusTone said:
Unity gain is easy for non-palm muted chords...
Click to expand...
That's not unity gain. If it were, your signal would be very quiet indeed.


CactusTone said:
...the moment I start chugging the dB spikes over 9db!!!
Click to expand...
If you set your base level at 0 dB on the VU meters, you'll have 20 dB of overhead. More than enough.
 
CactusTone said:
It doesn't clip on every attack, nor on every palm muted note, but it does clip frequently enough that it's an issue needing resolution.
Click to expand...
I think there is an area of the fretboard prone to this...I only clip when I palm mute power chords with the root note between 5 and 7 frets of the sixth string while the rest of chord locations are near the roof but doesn't clip, seems to be something intrinsic!
You can...
If you like the overall tone, lower the amp block level and compensate raising the output level physical knob.
...or you can try tweaking the low resonance parameters in the speaker page of the amp block, but probably you will loose some bite, definitely...
Rex said:
That spike is the thump.
Click to expand...
 
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ETOLKIEN said:
I think there is an area of the fretboard prone to this...I only clip when I palm mute power chords with the root note between 5 and 7 frets of the sixth string while the rest of chord locations are near the roof but doesn't clip, seems to be something intrinsic!
You can...
If you like the overall tone, lower the amp block level and compensate raising the level of the physical PA...
...or you can try tweaking the low resonance parameters in the speaker page of the amp block, but probably you will loose some bite, definitely...
Click to expand...
You could try a multi-band compressor at those freqs (between 5 and 7 frets) and just lightly compress it.
 
CactusTone said:
It's possible I'm hitting occasional 20dB spikes with the boost engaged. It doesn't clip on every attack, nor on every palm muted note, but it does clip frequently enough that it's an issue needing resolution.
Click to expand...

+20db?? Sounds like you just need to turn the bass/depth down or something. That's an insane amount of peaking if you're palm muting. I know it feels good to have that chunk in there when you're palm muting, but leave that to the bass player. That's his/her job. Definitely use the VU Meters in the Utility menu to set your Amp level right so you're not clipping.

Now to contradict everything I just said....here are Adrian Smith's live settings on the Marshall JMP-1, which has the bass maxed out....

If you want to get a good Adrian Smith sound, try these Amp Block settings with the JMPre-1 OD1 BS and the 4x12 1960B T75 (RW) cab. The JMPre-1's bass is not that powerful/punchy and sounds kinda flubby, but in a good way? I don't know how to explain it but it sounds awesome to me. I play in a Maiden tribute band and play all of Adrian's parts. These are the settings I use:

Amp: JMPre-1 OD1 BS
Input trim: 0.34*
Input drive: Maxed
Bass: Maxed
Mid: 6.66**
Treble: 6.66**
Presence: Maxed
Depth: 0
Master: 3.00***
Cab: 4x12 1960B T75 (RW)

If you want to get a good Somewhere in Time sound, slap a Chorus block after the amp set to Japan CE-2 or Dimension 1 and mix like 40%. Put a shit ton of reverb and delay on there too.

When I do my solos, I turn on a tubescreamer (can't remember settings right now) and a filter block after the amp. The filter has a slight high-pass filter around 80-100hz, a small bump around 800hz, and an overall +2dB volume boost to soar over everything.

* My guitar's pickups are VERY high output so I turn down the input trim. You can adjust this to taste
** On the actual Marshal JMP-1, the BMT pot values are digital and range from -6 to +6. Adrian's settings for Mid and Treb are +2. Since the Axe FX's knobs range from 0 to 10, if you do some quick math to translate, it works out to be 6.66, ironically.
*** The actual Marshall JMP-1 is just a preamp and doesn't have a power amp section, but the Axe FX II model gives it your EL34 power section. I have my preset set to 3.00 because it's what I liked. Too much Master volume and it starts to sound too woody.
 
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For me, big spikes in palm mutes is a sign that I've got slightly too much bass dialed in. This easily catch me out if I am dialing in tones at low volumes or on headphone/monitors that are lacking in bass response.

Try backing off the bass and see if things improve, but obviously if it is detrimental to your overall (non-palm muting) tone then maybe some compression is required to tame those peaks.
 
yeah, i was gonna suggest the multicomp trick as well. i would also suggest looking at where the low res frequency is on the speaker page of the amp block. simply lowering that by a few hz down to say 85hz can really tighten up the bottom end
 
Paperjace said:
+20db?? Sounds like you just need to turn the bass/depth down or something. That's an insane amount of peaking if you're palm muting. I know it feels good to have that chunk in there when you're palm muting, but leave that to the bass player. That's his/her job. Definitely use the VU Meters in the Utility menu to set your Amp level right so you're not clipping.

Now to contradict everything I just said....here are Adrian Smith's live settings on the Marshall JMP-1, which has the bass maxed out....

If you want to get a good Adrian Smith sound, try these Amp Block settings with the JMPre-1 OD1 BS and the 4x12 1960B T75 (RW) cab. The JMPre-1's bass is not that powerful/punchy and sounds kinda flubby, but in a good way? I don't know how to explain it but it sounds awesome to me. I play in a Maiden tribute band and play all of Adrian's parts. These are the settings I use:

Amp: JMPre-1 OD1 BS
Input trim: 0.34*
Input drive: Maxed
Bass: Maxed
Mid: 6.66**
Treble: 6.66**
Presence: Maxed
Depth: 0
Master: 3.00***
Cab: 4x12 1960B T75 (RW)

If you want to get a good Somewhere in Time sound, slap a Chorus block after the amp set to Japan CE-2 or Dimension 1 and mix like 40%. Put a shit ton of reverb and delay on there too.

When I do my solos, I turn on a tubescreamer (can't remember settings right now) and a filter block after the amp. The filter has a slight high-pass filter around 80-100hz, a small bump around 800hz, and an overall +2dB volume boost to soar over everything.

* My guitar's pickups are VERY high output so I turn down the input trim. You can adjust this to taste
** On the actual Marshal JMP-1, the BMT pot values are digital and range from -6 to +6. Adrian's settings for Mid and Treb are +2. Since the Axe FX's knobs range from 0 to 10, if you do some quick math to translate, it works out to be 6.66, ironically.
*** The actual Marshall JMP-1 is just a preamp and doesn't have a power amp section, but the Axe FX II model gives it your EL34 power section. According to Google, I have my preset set to 3.00 because it's what I liked. Too much Master volume and it starts to sound too woody.
Click to expand...
You just made my day! Thank you!
 
** On the actual Marshal JMP-1, the BMT pot values are digital and range from -6 to +6. Adrian's settings for Mid and Treb are +2. Since the Axe FX's knobs range from 0 to 10, if you do some quick math to translate, it works out to be 6.66, ironically.**

don't forget that the jmp tone controls have about 8db of boost/cut, but the model has about 12db of boost cut. some an extra bit of math is actually required to make them line up (but even then the tapers on the model differ from the tapers on the original, so they still won't line up). best to use your ears.
 
simeon said:
** On the actual Marshal JMP-1, the BMT pot values are digital and range from -6 to +6. Adrian's settings for Mid and Treb are +2. Since the Axe FX's knobs range from 0 to 10, if you do some quick math to translate, it works out to be 6.66, ironically.**

don't forget that the jmp tone controls have about 8db of boost/cut, but the model has about 12db of boost cut. some an extra bit of math is actually required to make them line up (but even then the tapers on the model differ from the tapers on the original, so they still won't line up). best to use your ears.
Click to expand...
Oh wow! Good to know! Well I like having the Mid and Treble at 6.66 for obvious Iron Maiden reasons :-D
 
Paperjace said:
+20db?? Sounds like you just need to turn the bass/depth down or something. That's an insane amount of peaking if you're palm muting. I know it feels good to have that chunk in there when you're palm muting, but leave that to the bass player. That's his/her job. Definitely use the VU Meters in the Utility menu to set your Amp level right so you're not clipping.

Now to contradict everything I just said....here are Adrian Smith's live settings on the Marshall JMP-1, which has the bass maxed out....

If you want to get a good Adrian Smith sound, try these Amp Block settings with the JMPre-1 OD1 BS and the 4x12 1960B T75 (RW) cab. The JMPre-1's bass is not that powerful/punchy and sounds kinda flubby, but in a good way? I don't know how to explain it but it sounds awesome to me. I play in a Maiden tribute band and play all of Adrian's parts. These are the settings I use:

Amp: JMPre-1 OD1 BS
Input trim: 0.34*
Input drive: Maxed
Bass: Maxed
Mid: 6.66**
Treble: 6.66**
Presence: Maxed
Depth: 0
Master: 3.00***
Cab: 4x12 1960B T75 (RW)

If you want to get a good Somewhere in Time sound, slap a Chorus block after the amp set to Japan CE-2 or Dimension 1 and mix like 40%. Put a shit ton of reverb and delay on there too.

When I do my solos, I turn on a tubescreamer (can't remember settings right now) and a filter block after the amp. The filter has a slight high-pass filter around 80-100hz, a small bump around 800hz, and an overall +2dB volume boost to soar over everything.

* My guitar's pickups are VERY high output so I turn down the input trim. You can adjust this to taste
** On the actual Marshal JMP-1, the BMT pot values are digital and range from -6 to +6. Adrian's settings for Mid and Treb are +2. Since the Axe FX's knobs range from 0 to 10, if you do some quick math to translate, it works out to be 6.66, ironically.
*** The actual Marshall JMP-1 is just a preamp and doesn't have a power amp section, but the Axe FX II model gives it your EL34 power section. I have my preset set to 3.00 because it's what I liked. Too much Master volume and it starts to sound too woody.
Click to expand...

I had tons of fun playing around with a preset starting at these values...thx for sharing! \m/
 
If the problem is among that crestfactor for loudness , consider to put a very transparent saturator , it smooths the dynamics without sacrifing the tone . I suggest you to check Bazrog KClip2 ... just phenomenal on mastering , instrumenst busses or even single tracks .
BTW for live MBC is the way to go if you don't want to sacrify your big low end chugs
 
Here's a solution from the other point of view, did you experiment not physically hitting the palm mutes so hard when using a lot of gain? With so much gain, let the amp do the work for you.
 
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