Ultra FX processing vs Eventide H8000 FX processing

[Tone_Freak]

Just wondering if the effects, Eqs, Comps, etc, in the Axe Ultra valued at around $2000 is on par or not on par with those of the Eventide H8000 valued at around $6000.

Is the saying "you get what you pay for accurate in this price comparision as well (for effects)?

 

[cradleofflames]

They are indeed comparable though they were designed with different purposes in mind. The H7600 is a better example since a large amount of what you are pay for in the H8000 is the eight independent channels. In my experience the major example demonstrating the difference in purposes is that the Axe loads faster unless what you're loading is in one of the Eventide's 20 virtual racks where there isn't a noticeable difference.

 

[steadystate]

The quality of effects is comparable. Both are among the best in existence.

I believe the H8000 is more comparable to the Axe than the H7600. Although it does have eight channels including the digital I/O, the H8000 has two pair of analog ins and outs like the Axe as opposed to the H7600's single analog stereo I/O. The H7600's single DSP isn't nearly as powerful as the TigerSHARC, at least in real-world application of effects. It won't even come close to running the number of simultaneous effects as the Ultra. The H8000's dual DSP is more in line with what the Axe can do. I have an Orville, and have corresponded with H8000 owners to determine exactly how much larger their programs can be. The difference isn't that great, maybe 15%.

No doubt the H8000/7600 are more flexible (custom user interface, ultimate routing options, word clock, firewire, complete control of every aspect of every aspect, superior external control of every parameter) and have top notch effects algorithms, many of which are not available on the Axe. But the algorithm quality is not higher than Fractal's. And boy are they a pain to program, even with VSIG. Long switching times between different algorithms (it must compile them before they load). Very expensive as well. You can buy two Ultras and a Standard for the price of the H8000. The amp algorithms are obviously not comparable. They are different products intended for different applications.

I haven't sold my Orville yet, but neither have I used it since I bought the Axe.

 

[Matman]

I think you missed monolithic mode, which gives the 8000 about 115% more power than an Orville for single programs ;-)

That said, my own 8000 has only been turned on for short comparisons since I got the Ultra 2 years ago. It still sounds great, and to be honest, there are a few things I really miss.... the Picodelay, which allows you to specify precise delay times via a number of individual samples, the polyfuzz programs (which use the equivalent of 4 drive pedal emulations), maybe certain qualities of the Ultrashifter, some of the really long sample programs (for Reich stuff , but honestly, the Axe-Fx has such broad and beautiful horizons of its own -- and is so easy to use and enjoy -- I just don't look back.

To answer the original poster's question directly, the quality of the effects in the Axe-Fx are definitely on par with those in the 8000 (and any other contender). Since Cliff added read-ahead to the Axe-Fx compressors, I actually prefer them (but I never saw compression as a forte of the 8000). The Ultra's EQs are perfect for any task -- numerous, easy to use/place, and musically satisfying.

Final analysis: for me, the features, architecture and awesome sonic quality of the Axe-Fx give me more musical mileage than any other guitar product in my 30 year history of gear. More than anything else, I've found this to be key to my ongoing honeymoon relationship with this product. Don't focus on price or parables: you can make ~amazing~ music on a $15 guitar if it inspires you, and that's what the Axe-Fx does for me.

 

[steadystate]

I think you missed monolithic mode, which gives the 8000 about 115% more power than an Orville for single programs ;-)

Sort of, but not really. I could always use both DSPs in the Orville to create one big algorithm using audio/control links between DSPs A and B. There are restrictions, but they never bothered me in my algorithms. I'd put some effects in A, and others in B, then load both programs. Monolithic is a big improvement, but the total horsepower isn't that much greater.

 

[Woland]

Well,
I have the Ultra and a Eclipse, which is not comparable to the H8000, and my opinion is that the Eclipse effects sounds better... so I'm quite surprised that many of you thinks that the Fractal is as good as the H8000. I should probably work more deeply in the effect section on my Ultra

 

[steadystate]

I can't think of a single effect that the Orville does better than the Axe-FX (except for the few not available in the Axe). I know the effects libraries for the Orville are largely the same as the H8000's. These observations are taken from the Orville.

Noise gate:
Ultra: Expander-type. Works great.
Eventide: No expander-type. Never liked it. I used a hardware expander instead.

Compressor:
Ultra: Feedforward or feedback, lookahead, knee control, sidechain filters, etc. Sounds great. Easy to use.
Eventide: Soft knee only. No lookahead. No detect type. Ultra's sounds much better to me.

Filter:
Axe: 2nd order. Great sounding and highly adjustable.
Eventide: 2nd order. Also great sounding. Has more modulation possibilities, super high Q, and an FIR (convolution) linear phase filter type with 63 taps. If you need a Q of 1000 (whatever that really means)...

Graphic EQ:
Ultra: 8 bands. Sounds great.
Eventide: Any number of bands up to 31 band 1/3 octave or more, limited by DSP. Sounds great. You may need to construct your own, and they hog userobject resources (resources that allow you to 'draw' the user interface on the display). Practical limit is around two stereo 31 band eqs (with ganged L/R controls), unless they have freed up more userobject memory.

Parametric EQ:
Ultra: Four five-band blocks.
Eventide: Limited by DSP power. You may need to construct you own. Quality is comparable.

Crossover:
Ultra: Two two-way stereo blocks. Easy to use and sound great.
Eventide: Limited by DSP power. Filter order is user-adjustable. You may need to construct you own. Quality is comparable.

Resonator: Eventide can do it, but it is not a straightforward block like the Ultra. You must dig through presets to find something similar, then copy it. The comb filter modules are useful for this if you build it from scratch, along with delays, filters, mixer, lfos, etc.

Chorus / Quad Chorus / Flanger:
Ultra: Superb! Only wish there were triangle LFO for more than 2 voices on Chorus. Very easy to set up top quality effects.
Eventide: There are no "chorus" or "flanger" modules. You must extract one from a preset (and hope it is what you want) or build your own with modulatable delays, lfos, mixers, etc. PITA, but offers ultimate flexibility for those with time. Superb quality if built correctly. Not "better", just more flexible and more work.

Phaser:
Ultra: Awesome. Easy.
Eventide: Phase shift module on its own sounds awful and is of little use without other modules to modify its behavior. Search for preset and copy one that sounds good. I never found a preset with an awesome phaser, although I'm sure the unit can do it. I'll take the Axe phaser any day.

Rotary:
Ultra: Easy to use. Sounds great.
Eventide: Again, no "rotary" module. Build one from scratch (PITA) or copy one from a preset if you can find one you like. Quality will depend on sophistication of the particular preset. Almost not worth the trouble. Axe is a piece of cake.

Wah:
Ultra: Nice.
Eventide: Again, no "wah" module. Build one from scratch (easy) using a modulatable filter or copy one from a preset if you can find one you like.

Formant filter:
Ultra: Nice.
Eventide: Again, no "formant filter" module. This can be achieved, but you'll need to find it in a preset and copy it (Kill the Guy with the Ball).

Vocoder:
Ultra: Nice.
Eventide: Again, no "vocoder" module. This can be achieved, but you'll need to find it in a preset and copy it.

Pan/Tremolo
Ultra: Easy and pristine.
Eventide: You must link a mixer's pan control or a gain block to an LFO or control source. Great quality as well.

Various types of delays:
Ultra: Sound great. Highly programmable. Easy to use.
Eventide: Sound great, but may require lots of editor work to configure exactly how you want them. Virtually no limit to flexibility if you are willing to spend the time and effort.

Reverb:
Ultra: Awesome. Easy to program.
Eventide: Awesome. Extremely difficult to build from scratch, so scour presets for one you like and copy. The user interface and available parameters will vary wildly from preset to preset. Eventide's reverb structure is often difficult to understand, with no real description of what an arbitrarily named parameter actually does. I much prefer the Ultra's reverb, for both sound and user interface.

Amp sims:
Ultra: The best there is. This is the main reason I love this box so much.
Eventide: Meh. No contest.

Cab sim:
Ultra: Convolution. User slots.
Eventide: None. Use eq and comb filters

Drive:
Ultra: Great sims.
Eventide: Generic.

Pitch Shifter:
Ultra: Great tone and tracking of mono and poly sources. Quality easily on a par with Eventide. Intelligent shifter almost flawless.
Eventide: Superb. +/- four octaves. Great tracking of mono and poly sources. Generally need to use a mixer module afterward. The diatonic shifter in the Orville is crap compared to the Axe-FX. CRAP I TELL YOU!!!! Perhaps the H8000 is better. The Orville has no custom scales. I believe the H8000 does, but I have not tried them.

Synth:
Ultra: Nice.
Eventide: Comparable (oscillator modules). Can achieve more voices.

Ring Mod:
Comparable.

Stereo Enhancer:
Can be achieved with either unit. Comparable.

CC control:
Eventide has the edge here.

Most notable are the reverb and pitch shifters. The Axe easily holds its own. You can't get 5.1 processing, an eight octave pitch shift range, or formant preserved pitch shift, but I don't need that. I really do think the world of Eventide's stuff. But if I had to pick one or the other, I'd pick the Axe, even for just the effects. I simply don't have the free time I used to enjoy.

 

[Matman]

CC control:
Eventide has the edge here.

I have to disagree somewhat, despite the broad flexibility and great control signal routing/combination possibilities offered by the 8000 in this area, just because of how the Axe-Fx is tailored towards EASILY constructing virtual pedalboards with its Control:I/O page dedicated to block bypass, plus its centralized node structure externals. I get more musical mileage out of the Fractal's very pragmatic approach.

 

[HailHalford]

But which one does a better Variac simulation?

 

[TheOtherDave]

But which one does a better Variac simulation?

A RackVax? I've never used or heard one, so I don't know.

 

[Tone_Freak]

dont forget the 8000's presets though... theres a hell of alot of very "far out" sounds from what I heard. Any of such crazy effects in the Axe FX? Or are they just meant mostly for guitar effects?

Its a huge price 4 grand difference... so the 8000 has to have something the Axe does not. What is that 4 grand difference? My guess is not just the harmonization, but also of the programmed patches. The insanity of the effects. I have heard what this thing can do. But apparently we have some in here claiming the 800 can do nothing the Axe can't, and others say it certainly does have things the axe does not in terms of effects.

 

[Dutch]

dont forget the 8000's presets though... theres a hell of alot of very "far out" sounds from what I heard. Any of such crazy effects in the Axe FX? Or are they just meant mostly for guitar effects?

Its a huge price 4 grand difference... so the 8000 has to have something the Axe does not. What is that 4 grand difference?

That's the margin Cliff does not make.

Cliff built the first Axe-FX in his spare time for himself and a couple to sell. Never figured on selling more than a couple hundred IIRC from the old forum looooong ago. So I guess his R&D budget wasn't figured into the price much. Labour of love... That and he priced it to compete with other guitar processors out there, not with high end studio processors. Cliff stated he doesn't make a huge margin on the Axe's and that the development of the MFC was more expensive than the Axe-FX itself. :lol:

The Axe-FX is an amazing device. I wish I could play worthy of it.

 

[Griffin]

Eventide effects have a certain colour to them, you like it or don't. The AxeFX has a more neutral sound to the effects (very transparent). I prefer the AxeFx sound to Eventides.

Also Eventide algorithms are a nightmare to construct - so tiresome and you really need to know your stuff, which is why most people use the presets or variations of. If you want to "roll your own" the AxeFx wins hands down. Javajunkie has more than successfuly ported some presets, a few are actually in the AxeFx presets. So while the Eventide does have SOME good whacky presets, I haven't heard much that is unachievable by the Axe. As to the usability of those presets, well that is a different conversation.

And if you take into account the incredible AxeFx amp sims (which do take some open mindedness and time to get the best out of them) , the AxeFx is a no brainer, even without a variac parameter.

I certainly do not hear anything like $4000 dollars worth of difference, just difference, some good some not so good. Lots of peple have dumped/no longer use their Eventides and TC gear once they have bought the AxeFx. I went from a "huge rack" to a 4U: power conditioner, an AxeFx and a SS power amp (which I only use occaisionally as I am mostly FRFR these days). The Ultra is an absolute bargain IMHO. You can even sell it for around the same price at the moment-unlike most Eventide units...

 

[steadystate]

CC control:
Eventide has the edge here.

I have to disagree somewhat, despite the broad flexibility and great control signal routing/combination possibilities offered by the 8000 in this area, just because of how the Axe-Fx is tailored towards EASILY constructing virtual pedalboards with its Control:I/O page dedicated to block bypass, plus its centralized node structure externals. I get more musical mileage out of the Fractal's very pragmatic approach.

Point well taken. In order to externally control a parameter on the Eventide, you must go into the editor, insert an external control module, connect it to the parameter you wish to control, scale it appropriately, link it to a control source, and take care of some other housekeeping, each time resending/recompiling the algorithm. I generally have to experiment for a while before I get it right. With the Axe, the process is much easier. I say the Eventide has the edge because there is almost nothing you can't control if you are willing to go to the trouble of doing it. You also have the ability to insert any number of math modules into the control signals. Very nifty. Eventide can also use node structure externals if you want them by use of redirectors.

As for some of the other comments in this thread, the H8000 will do many effects the Axe won't, will process eight channels at once, has interface options out the wazoo, and I think, it runs at higher native sampling rates (not sure about that one). And I love the ability to make custom user interfaces. But it will eat all of your spare time. I spent far more time programming than I did playing, even though I loved it at the time.

As for the wacky effects, both units can do their fair share. I don't think they are useful for anything other than a demo. And having 3000 presets may not be as cool as one might think.

As for the "feeding", it is probably apparent that I am a total fanboy for both Eventide and Fractal Audio. I have always loved Eventide for the quality and flexibility of their units. Once I no longer had the time to deal with it, I was overjoyed by the discovery of a product with equal quality that was much easier to set up and far more affordable. The comparisons between the two companies are widespread. I post for anyone who may be interested in the similarities and differences. Where else can you get this type of info, if not on a forum of real users?

Given the amp and cab sims, the choice is a no-brainer for a guitarist.

Its a huge price 4 grand difference... so the 8000 has to have something the Axe does not. What is that 4 grand difference?

That's the margin Cliff does not make.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
I believe it.

 

[Tone_Freak]

As opposed to Mellings attempt once again, and his belief that I am somehow attempting to spread discord, I can assure I am appreciative of the responses.

I plan on programming interesting effects into the Axe FX, but the question is how to program some of the crazy vsig-programmed effects of the Eventide 8000 or 7600 into the Axe. Those are some very complex effects, but doesn't the Axe FX only have like 300 or so presets? Or is there some online resource where you can buy FX presets (not amps - i mean strictly crazy effects purchased for the axe).

 

[Matman]

but the question is how to program some of the crazy vsig-programmed effects of the Eventide 8000 or 7600 into the Axe.

First off, there's nothing inherently crazy about VSIG. It's just a tool. Secondly, the general level of "craziness" in Eventide presets is not generally high. In fact, offhand, I'd wager that the world library of Axe-Fx presets has a greater percentage of creative/out-there sounds.

Secondly, for such a general question as the one above, one can only provide a general answer.

An Eventide algorithm is built of modules. The Axe-Fx is modular as well.

- You look at the algo in VSIG
- Determine how its architecture translates into similar structures in Axe-Fx.
- Set it up
- look at parameter values
- - find cases where they port directly (100=ms = 100ms)
- - evaluate cases where they don't and determine equivalents
- Tweak to taste.

Also, I want to comment on the point made below that "colour" is a key difference between these products. It is not, in my opinion. The differences highlighted by Steadystate and Dutch below are far more salient.

Do you not have either unit?

 

[Tone_Freak]

An Eventide algorithm is built of modules. The Axe-Fx is modular as well.

- You look at the algo in VSIG
- Determine how its architecture translates into similar structures in Axe-Fx.
- Set it up
- look at parameter values
- - find cases where they port directly (100=ms = 100ms)
- - evaluate cases where they don't and determine equivalents
- Tweak to taste.

But without the actual 7600 present, can the preset architecture be seen in the VSIG software? Because Eventide told me its online with the unit and eif you want to work on a preset, you extract the patch from the 7600 into the Vsig. But I want to be able to do this without buying the 7600. (800 is just a multi-channel version of the 7600 for the rest following).

Do you not have either unit?

The ultra is arriving at my step any day now, assuming probably monday or tuesday.

 

[Matman]

Owning the unit, I was unaware that Eventide factory presets were not generally available. I just noticed that the site requires login to download them.
In any case, if you're good you can do these things by ear. The numbers are just a way to get there quickly and precisely.

-m@

 

[Tone_Freak]

I wanted to follow up to this thread because i just had the chance to demo an eventide H7600! DAMNNN!! I am buying that!! The effects are insane! Whey bigger to my ears... i will just leave the Axe to amps and maybe a simple delay or flange here and there - but thats it! The multi-fx are to be delegated to the eventide.

Eventide effects have a certain colour to them, you like it or don't. The AxeFX has a more neutral sound to the effects (very transparent).

Ive come to a bit of a change of mind now that I have heard the Eventide 7600. The axe - when many FX blocks are layerd - sounds very colored - but not at all like the synthetic color of an eventide. I find the Axe a bit more thin - but not thin in a bad way - but its just a more 70s sort of washed out analog feel. I only intend to use some Axe FX effects for some basic stuff.

But now after hearing the 7600, when going back again through the AxeFX presets with many effects or when i set up my own multi-fx, the Axe sounds like more vintage type gear and the eventide sounds very synthetic. both good, - but the eventide in the end will be my choice and a definite must have for multi-FX and anyone who wants twisted otherworldy effects that are far out. But even for chorus and other stuff, i think the eventide is meant for more hyper-synthetic effects and the Axe FX multi-fx is best suited for vintagey- retroish, and 70-s ish sort of effects that have that washed out analog feel. Must be due to layering such blocks... which are all very vintage sounding. So I prefer the axe with only one or two effects and a few EQs at most but routed to the 7600 for multi-fx. The best setup IMO.

but I just compared the effects on an Eventide 7600 side by side with the axe, and for the twisted evil stuff - believe me - the Eventide is the clear pick for me.

I prefer the AxeFx sound to Eventides.

I do only for the amps only and maybe a simple delay or tight reverb for solos. but for the multi-fx and twisted stuff - the eventide wins. But for vintage analog feel - the axe FX wins. Its crazy though - i wish you were there when i did this comparison - both are good - but that eventide through my apogee is extremely silky yet thick in a synthetic way - i cannot put it into words - and the Axe FX is simply vintage-modeled.

Also Eventide algorithms are a nightmare to construct - so tiresome and you really need to know your stuff, which is why most people use the presets or variations of.

Which is why the eventide 7600 has over a 1000 factory presets and the 8000 has 1800 presets.

If you want to "roll your own" the AxeFx wins hands down.

Depends on what you are trying to do. Not for more synthetic sounding stuff IMO.

Javajunkie has more than successfuly ported some presets, a few are actually in the AxeFx presets. So while the Eventide does have SOME good whacky presets, I haven't heard much that is unachievable by the Axe. As to the usability of those presets, well that is a different conversation.

Actually I find alot of the Axe presets also whacky and unusable just as there are many unusable and wierd ones in the eventide too. But the character is just different and best suited for different purposes. The 8000/7600 can make anything sound like a beast from hell man - i just witnessed it for myself. (the 8000 is just a 7600 with surround versions of many of the same effects.

And if you take into account the incredible AxeFx amp sims (which do take some open mindedness and time to get the best out of them) , the AxeFx is a no brainer, even without a variac parameter.

For amps i agree its a no brainer. I do not share the same belief for the character of the multi-FX algorithms.

I certainly do not hear anything like $4000 dollars worth of difference, just difference, some good some not so good.

Actually the 7600 is about 1800 in difference. I believe the axe is just under-priced. But the Eventide is worth it. You have to check it out!

Lots of peple have dumped/no longer use their Eventides and TC gear once they have bought the AxeFx. I went from a "huge rack" to a 4U: power conditioner, an AxeFx and a SS power amp (which I only use occaisionally as I am mostly FRFR these days). The Ultra is an absolute bargain IMHO. You can even sell it for around the same price at the moment-unlike most Eventide units...

I am glad I kept my large 12 space case because i know what is going in next - a no-brainer item. i just like that hyper-synthetic sound for FX stuff. I am glad all questions asked in this thread have now been resolved.

 

[steadystate]

After further consideration, I believe the only useful advantage for me with the Eventide is external control. Although I have been using the Axe at home for some time, I only recently started seriously programming my midi foot controller for use with the Axe. Many important effects parameters of the Axe are not available for external control. The ones that are can be difficult to manage since the Modifier parameters' values have no direct correlation to the effects parameters' values. This is a source of frustration for me. Even some cheapo Digitech stuff lets you choose min and max values using the target parameter's units instead of generic percents.

Since virtually any parameter can be controlled with the Eventide, and since you have a wide variety of options for scaling the controller information, I give the edge to Eventide. Control may be more difficult to set up in some respects (easier in others), but ultimately I can do whatever I need to do. You can also set up a parameter to be controlled on a channel other than the base channel of the unit.

As far as 'color', sound quality, twisted evil effects, vintage vs. retro, etc., there is no clear pick for me. The Axe wins overall simply for the amp models, IRs, and ease of programming. Keep in mind that people have been writing bizarre algorithms for the Eventides much longer than they have been for the Axe. This gives the impression that the Eventide is capable of more, when the fact may be that it simply has been better exploited up till now. Also, what is possible and what is practical are two different things.