Wish Two sets of Scenes - with suggestion for controlling them with single CC#

GreatGreen

Power User
There's an interesting discussion on TGP about users wanting to be able to detach user-selectable blocks from Scenes, so for example you could change all your effects but leave your Amp blocks unchanged. Well, for a while now, I've thought about the possibility of having two sets of Scenes per patch, and having each block assignable to either "Scenes A" or "Scenes B."

I'd set my effects blocks to "Scene A, 1-8" and my Amp blocks to "Scene B, 1-8," for example. This way, blocks detached from the primary set of Scenes are still controllable.

And here's the other cool thing... the CC commands allow for two sets of scenes without having to use any additional MIDI CC slots. The Axe-Fx III currently uses CC#34 for Scenes, like this:

current CC values for changing Scenes
CC #34 value 0 = Scene 1
CC #34 value 1 = Scene 2
CC #34 value 2 = Scene 3
CC #34 value 3 = Scene 4
CC #34 value 4 = Scene 5
CC #34 value 5 = Scene 6
CC #34 value 6 = Scene 7
CC #34 value 7 = Scene 8


Here's something neat though, you could have two sets of Scenes and still only need one CC# to control them both. Organize them like I have below and you could fit two sets of Scenes into how the Axe already operates AND make both of them controllable with a single MIDI command. Also, this way both preserves current functionality and makes it easy to remember what value controls what combination of scenes:


Proposed new "default" CC values using two sets of Scenes:
CC #34 value 0 = Scene A1, Scene B1
CC #34 value 1 = Scene A2, Scene B1
CC #34 value 2 = Scene A3, Scene B1
CC #34 value 3 = Scene A4, Scene B1
CC #34 value 4 = Scene A5, Scene B1
CC #34 value 5 = Scene A6, Scene B1
CC #34 value 6 = Scene A7, Scene B1
CC #34 value 7 = Scene A8, Scene B1


After the first set of values, you can move to setting up values so numbers in the "1's" place correspond with Scene A and numbers in the "10's" place correspond with Scene B. This would make remembering and programming them easy and intuitive:

CC #34 value 11 = Scene A1, Scene B1
CC #34 value 12 = Scene A2, Scene B1
CC #34 value 13 = Scene A3, Scene B1
CC #34 value 14 = Scene A4, Scene B1
CC #34 value 15 = Scene A5, Scene B1
CC #34 value 16 = Scene A6, Scene B1
CC #34 value 17 = Scene A7, Scene B1
CC #34 value 18 = Scene A8, Scene B1

CC #34 value 21 = Scene A1, Scene B2
CC #34 value 22 = Scene A2, Scene B2
CC #34 value 23 = Scene A3, Scene B2
CC #34 value 24 = Scene A4, Scene B2
CC #34 value 25 = Scene A5, Scene B2
CC #34 value 26 = Scene A6, Scene B2
CC #34 value 27 = Scene A7, Scene B2
CC #34 value 28 = Scene A8, Scene B2

CC #34 value 31 = Scene A1, Scene B3
CC #34 value 32 = Scene A2, Scene B3
CC #34 value 33 = Scene A3, Scene B3
CC #34 value 34 = Scene A4, Scene B3
CC #34 value 35 = Scene A5, Scene B3
CC #34 value 36 = Scene A6, Scene B3
CC #34 value 37 = Scene A7, Scene B3
CC #34 value 38 = Scene A8, Scene B3


The cool thing about this system is that it wouldn't disrupt the Scene functionality of current MIDI setups at all. All blocks would default to Scenes A, so current setups would still function like they do now, AND it would allow users to control two sets of scenes with only a single MIDI command, single button press as well.
 
Since scene selection is modulo 8, you can not safely assume this wouldn't break existing implementations.

Currently, you can send 0 or 8 or 16, etc to select scene 1. Similarly 1, 9, 17, etc for scene 2.

Some people with "simple" midi controllers that only send 0 and 127 for CC values can still use that to switch between scene 1 and scene 8.
 
@unix-guy With the way I suggested the setup, you could still implement everything as suggested above, and you could also add:

"CC #34 value 127 = Scene A8, Scene B1"

...to the end of the values, which would retain the "value 0 = Scene 1" and "value 127 = Scene 8" functionality for "simple" MIDI controllers as you described it.

As for the other point that values 0-8 work the same as values 9-17, are there any MIDI controllers out there that need that functionality? Is there any practical utility in that? I think I can see why it was implemented... basically, if CC#34 values 9-127 are unused, then why not just repeat the Scene commands until value 127, right? Especially since they are cleanly divisible by 8. I just have to ask what the odds would be of any real rig out there today that would be selecting Scenes via CC values other than 0-7 or simple controllers that alternate between 0 and 127. Like are there any rigs out there using "CC #34 value 18" for Scene 3, for example?
 
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The cool thing about this system is that it wouldn't disrupt the Scene functionality of current MIDI setups at all. All blocks would default to Scenes A, so current setups would still function like they do now, AND it would allow users to control two sets of scenes with only a single MIDI command, single button press as well.
It's a good idea. I think people tend to view their rigs as two separate domains: amp and effects, so it would make sense to group bypass/channels into two separate domains.

The problem, of course, would be getting people to understand such a system :). It's hard enough for people to grasp scenes as they are today.
 
It's a good idea. I think people tend to view their rigs as two separate domains: amp and effects, so it would make sense to group bypass/channels into two separate domains.

The problem, of course, would be getting people to understand such a system :). It's hard enough for people to grasp scenes as they are today.

Thanks, I hear you! You're right, some people don't want to deal with complexity at all. That's why I think one of the best things about this idea is that it's totally ignorable if people don't want to mess with it. :)
 
@unix-guy With the way I suggested the setup, you could still implement everything as suggested above, and you could also add:

"CC #34 value 127 = Scene A8, Scene B1"

...to the end of the values, which would retain the "value 0 = Scene 1" and "value 127 = Scene 8" functionality for "simple" MIDI controllers as you described it.

As for the other point that values 0-8 work the same as values 9-17, are there any MIDI controllers out there that need that functionality? Is there any practical utility in that? I think I can see why it was implemented... basically, if CC#34 values 9-127 are unused, then why not just repeat the Scene commands until value 127, right? Especially since they are cleanly divisible by 8. I just have to ask what the odds would be of any real rig out there today that would be selecting Scenes via CC values other than 0-7 or simple controllers that alternate between 0 and 127. Like are there any rigs out there using "CC #34 value 18" for Scene 3, for example?
Sorry, I think I missed something important on the first read regarding setting a block to be in A or B...

As far as whether other midi controllers "need" to use other values or not, my guess is no... But it doesn't mean somebody isn't using them.

They might however be using modulo 8 values and you have proposed a change there as well.

So you are proposing a "breaking change" (really two). I think it is possible but maintaining modulo 8 values would be less of an issue.
 
I don't think the suggested CC implementation is ideal for the way most people would probably want to use this sort of thing. It would make more sense if one CC (or range of values) controlled group A and another controlled group B. Then you could set up 16 switches with 16 CC values and access all 64 combinations from one footcontroller. This would also let two players use one Axe-FX with separate controllers for scene selection, which wouldn't really work if any one CC value forces both groups to a certain state.
 
Thanks, I hear you! You're right, some people don't want to deal with complexity at all. That's why I think one of the best things about this idea is that it's totally ignorable if people don't want to mess with it. :)
FYI, I believe Cliff has already chosen to go with another design, one where there is a simple "exclude from scenes" switch on blocks. The idea is you use channels to switch your amp and scenes to switch your effects. Your proposal has the advantage that you can bundle other blocks with your amp channels, but it sounds like this ship has already sailed.
 
FYI, I believe Cliff has already chosen to go with another design, one where there is a simple "exclude from scenes" switch on blocks. The idea is you use channels to switch your amp and scenes to switch your effects. Your proposal has the advantage that you can bundle other blocks with your amp channels, but it sounds like this ship has already sailed.
There's an interesting discussion on TGP about users wanting to be able to detach user-selectable blocks from Scenes, so for example you could change all your effects but leave your Amp blocks unchanged.
 
Yep, I saw where there was discussion about changing the current implementation on TGP.

I get a lot of use and fun out of my Axe-Fx so I thought I'd do my part and contribute an idea in case it's helpful while the iron is hot on the subject. :)
 
So, in thinking about it, the whole idea is not very useful unless swapping one set of scenes can be done entirely independently of the other set of scenes. That CC info isn't really useful because all those given commands necessitate changing both sets of scenes, which defeats the purpose of the whole thing. It effectively just creates up to 64 Scenes, not two sets of 8 independent Scenes.

Looks like two sets of Scenes wouldn't really work unless a new CC number can be used for the second set.
 
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