Tuning... Can you enlight me ?

[AlGrenadine]

I also tend to tune my string a little flat, to compensate the fact the string sounds sharper when hit hard,
but could someone explain me why this tuning works better ?





Or maybe, share better tuning methods ?

 

[Zwiebelchen]

Most "non clean" tunings simply make use of a natural chorus-like effect you achieve when having the strings a little out of tune between each other.

Basicly replicating what a 12 string guitar does.


But I haven't watched the video (at the office atm), so that's just an asumption what it is about. Could be totally wrong.

 

[Stringmanipulator]

I try to pick as normal as I can when tuning, using the same force and attack as a typically do ..
I've seen people tuning with a tuner hitting the strings very soft and then they start to play
with more force and they are all over the place

 

[yek]

I can't explain, but I always tune the low E a little flat too. When it's vibrating as a open string, or when fretting it, it gets in tune.

 

[AlGrenadine]

I try to pick as normal as I can when tuning, using the same force and attack as a typically do ..
I've seen people tuning with a tuner hitting the strings very soft and then they start to play
with more force and they are all over the place

Yes, but it seems it exists more advanced tuning techniques, like the one in the video
That's why i was asking for your techniques and maybe for a theory behind the video technique or your technique ?

 

[AlGrenadine]

I can't explain, but I always tune the low E a little flat too. When it's vibrating as a open string, or when fretting it, it gets in tune.

Yes, that's because large string tend to sound sharp when fretted hard, on my 8 strings i had to tune very flat ^^

 

[BigD1977]

If a string is flat while open and in tune when fretting, isn't that a problem with the action and/or intonation?

 

[Zwiebelchen]

If a string is flat while open and in tune when fretting, isn't that a problem with the action and/or intonation?

Not quite. The more you push a string down after the frets, the more you will pull that string, resulting in a sharp tune. You obviously can't do that with open strings, as there's nothing to push there.


I'd say just tune with a tuner with the average strength you use while playing. Everything else makes little sense - unless you play like a robot without any dynamics...

 

[BigD1977]

Not quite. The more you push a string down after the frets, the more you will pull that string, resulting in a sharp tune. You obviously can't do that with open strings, as there's nothing to push there.

Yes, but the intonation and action are set so that this tension is compromised for under normal string finger tension. Or it should be. It's related to the reason scalloped fret guitars can be harder to play, because people use too much finger pressure, thereby changing the note. You can achieve vibrato using the same technique, by putting extra pressure and releasing it without any movement across the fret. My point is that under normal playing tension with a good setup, this shouldn't happen.

 

[AlGrenadine]

Ok, but why in the video James Taylor tunes his strings with different flat percents ? Any theory ?

 

[BigD1977]

Ok, but why in the video James Taylor tunes his strings with different flat percents ? Any theory ?

Tommy Emmanuel doesn't tune to concert pitch because it sounds sweeter. When doing solo acoustic gigs I tune up to about 444 Hz because it just sounds nice on my guitar.

As to why you would tune different strings to different cents, it's most probably because of a perceived harmonic interaction in the keys he plays in. For instance, a C in the key of C is not the same frequency as a C in the key of G. When using open chords the most comfortable keys are sharp keys, so those frequencies become more important than the ones that dominate in flat keys. My theory is that he's accenting the frequencies in sharp keys by increasing the harmonic interaction, while sacrificing the interaction of flat keys.

Another reason could be that because different strings have different tensions/dimensions/materials the same finger pressure affects the strings in different ways. The guitar nut is optimised for one set of strings. If he doesn't like them, then he has to change the make and ideally get the guitar re-setup, or tune as he does to compensate.

Or he could just be messing with us.

 

[Sidivan]

That's an interesting video. I'm going to need to experiment with that flat tuning.

Now, onto your issue... it sounds like there are several things at work. When you pluck a string, the tuning is going to jump because you're actually pulling it out of whack for a second. However, it shouldn't jump a lot or take more than a second (or less) to return to normal pitch. My guitar guru growing up always referred to massive jumps when plucking the low E string as guitars with bad neck joints. He could actually hear, to the cent, how much it jumped. A good solid guitar with new (properly stretched) strings shouldn't move more than 1 or 2 cents. Low string tension and worn out strings will exaggerate this jump as will really thwacking the string.

The next thing you're talking about is fretted notes being out of tune. This is from high action, intonation problems, or simply fretting too hard and pulling the string out of tune. There are literally entire books about string mechanics highlighting the problem and possible solutions... This is why True Temperament frets exist; to compensate for string stretch on a per-fret basis. Minimizing the amount of stretch from unfretted to fretted is your best solution there (low action and high tension to prevent fret rattle). Fret placement on a guitar is actually a little off in the sense that the scale length is divided mathematically on a non-flexible plane. In other words, the math places the fret directly on a straight string, not a string bent from the elevation of the nut and bridge.

 

[pdup]

Buzz Feiten tuning.

 

[pdup]

All John Suhr guitars are build to the Buzz Feiten tuning. The nut are a smidgen offset. Using fx. the Peterson tuners with BF offset your get spot-on.
Not saying that when you see James Taylor playing he never hit the EAD strings harder than the GHE's.

 

[BigD1977]

Fret placement on a guitar is actually a little off in the sense that the scale length is divided mathematically on a non-flexible plane. In other words, the math places the fret directly on a straight string, not a string bent from the elevation of the nut and bridge.

....and is then compensated for by carving the nut, which, ideally, should be done for the make and tension of the set of strings the buyer is going to put on.

 

[pdup]

How It Works

 

[AlGrenadine]

Is it similar to earvana's ?

 

[Sidivan]

....and is then compensated for by carving the nut, which, ideally, should be done for the make and tension of the set of strings the buyer is going to put on.

Very true, but from a pure mathematical standpoint, carving the nut cannot compensate enough. There will always be some bending between an open string and a fretted string. The math on standard fret placement assumes a a straight string.

Like I mentioned in my previous post, there are hordes of people who have tried to solve this. The Buzz Feiten system, Earvana nuts, true temperament, etc... Are all examples of different solutions to the same problem. It's all about minimizing the issue because you can't get it perfect with anything except a slide.

 

[BigD1977]

Very true, but from a pure mathematical standpoint, carving the nut cannot compensate enough. There will always be some bending between an open string and a fretted string. The math on standard fret placement assumes a a straight string.

Like I mentioned in my previous post, there are hordes of people who have tried to solve this. The Buzz Feiten system, Earvana nuts, true temperament, etc... Are all examples of different solutions to the same problem. It's all about minimizing the issue because you can't get it perfect with anything except a slide.

Well, between carving the nut and bridge intonation you can get damn close. The rest of the difference.... well, it's up to the player to decide if it's noticeable, I suppose. Some folk look at me strangely for playing at 444Hz, some for using hard tension in my concert classical, and you wouldn't believe the amount of looks I got when I played an Abba tribute with a parker fly! They all did the job quite well though!

 

[Sixstring]

I also tend to tune my string a little flat, to compensate the fact the string sounds sharper when hit hard

Another fix to this is to not hit the strings so hard, as to fretting notes sharp that is a technique related issue as well. I can't use Jumbo fret's because of this without being overly conscious of what my fretting hand is doing.