Trying to Match FRFR to Marshall Cab

[sprint]

Out of interest I was trying to match the tone coming through my FRFR (Behringer KX1200 x 2) via Axe CAB SIM to the tone I get through my 2 2x12 Mashall cabs. Using a high gain patch, I hear some high end crackle through the real cabs that I could not get through the FRFR with Cab SIMs (tryed a number of cab sims including some redwires ones I bought). From there I tried some EQing on the FRFR side and got somewhat closer but the high end crackle/fizz I was getting through the cab was not coming through on FRFR. Then I started down the following road:

I played through FRFR with no cab sim for a while just to get a feel for what goes into my Marshall Cabs. I couldn't help but suspect that some of the characteristics of this "uncabbed" tone actually comes through the Marshalls (in a good way) and helps to produce the sound I hear through those cabs. So based on this I set up my FRFR patch with the CAB (in a side chain) and the "non cabbed" tone from the AMP fed into a mixer block. In the mixer block I blended a bit of "non cabbed" tone from the AMP into the tone coming from the CAB Sim. I was actually able to match the tone of my Marshall Cabs through the FRFR rig much more closely this way.

Any thoughts? Does this make sense? Is it a practical solution to getting an FRFR tone that more closely matches actual Cabs? Does my FRFR suck that bad (I've been thinking of upgrading to something better) or is this experiment relevant to higher end FRFR systems.

 

[mik]

That is exactly why this "AIR" parameter was introduced for the cab block in the latest editions of AXE-FX firmware. It does exactly that - mixes in direct sound from the amp block to give you that sizzle, and open up the sound.

This is actually a known studio trick.

Mik.

 

[sprint]

That is exactly why this "AIR" parameter was introduced for the cab block in the latest editions of AXE-FX firmware. It does exactly that - mixes in direct sound from the amp block to give you that sizzle, and open up the sound.

This is actually a known studio trick.

Mik.

Thanks! - I now understand the "Air" control much better than I did before.

 

[tubetonez]

I also have always wondered if there is something that happens when running through guitar cabs, when your preamp/amp is sending a lot of HF content that is above the response range of the cab/driver(s) does this still somehow contribute to the tone? If you set up a high gain tube amp with a guitar cab and get a nice lead tone, then plug it into a FRFR speaker it's going to sound horrible. All that high end was going to the guitar cab, which doesn't reproduce much of it but still seems that it must be enhancing the tone.

Another aspect is that drivers when pushed hard will have some power compression which affects the tone as well. FRFR speakers will also, but in most cases you'll have more overhead with higher powered speakers.

 

[logicroxx]

I also have always wondered if there is something that happens when running through guitar cabs, when your preamp/amp is sending a lot of HF content that is above the response range of the cab/driver(s) does this still somehow contribute to the tone? If you set up a high gain tube amp with a guitar cab and get a nice lead tone, then plug it into a FRFR speaker it's going to sound horrible. All that high end was going to the guitar cab, which doesn't reproduce much of it but still seems that it must be enhancing the tone.

Another aspect is that drivers when pushed hard will have some power compression which affects the tone as well. FRFR speakers will also, but in most cases you'll have more overhead with higher powered speakers.

This is right up Jay's alley; I'd send him a pm if he doesn't stumble upon this thread in the next day or so.

 

[Brian G]

If the IR of the guitar speaker is well done, it will have exactly the same kind of HF rolloff as the actual speaker does. So, in theory, it should behave the same as the real article in this sense. This is what some people seem to overlook when discussing behaviour of IR's. An electric guitar sound without this tone shaping sounds horribly bright.

If you have a slightly dark-sounding monitor (or have a truly full-range monitor on the floor, where it's bass is boosted by boundary effect with the floor, which causes the overall sound to be boomier & therefore perceived as being less bright overall), I can see why you might like a bit of AIR, but it's not as ideal as getting that monitor off the floor.

A good FRFR monitor should not compress to any noticeable degree, until it's close to the limits of it's linear operating range. At that point there are probably other signs of stress that are more obvious than compression.