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Trying to get a real tube amp sound going direct into mixing board with powered QSC K12's and K10's

Discussion in 'Axe-Fx II Discussion' started by bdcoach, Apr 29, 2017.

  1. bdcoach

    bdcoach
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    I am running direct into our behringer mixing board.
    We are using 2 powered QSC K12's,
    2 powered QSC K10's and 2 powered behringer sub 15's.
    Can anyone give me any advice on
    trying to get better sound, like a real tube sound. I run the AXE FX in with xlr cables. My main guitar are 3 Les paul traditional pro 2 2014's. I also own a AX8 as a back up.
     
  2. lqdsnddist

    lqdsnddist
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    What does a "real" tube amp sound like ?

    Do you mean the sound of listening to a guitar amp from various listening positions ?

    Do you mean the sound of a mic'd up guitar cab played back through a house PA system ?

    Do you mean the sound of a tube amp ran through an attenuator so it has a line out signal, either with or without a speaker emulation ?


    I think the Axe-Fx sounds and feels exactly like a tube amp, to such a degree I can't tell it apart from hardware amps I've owned. What exactly do you think is missing and why doesn't it sound like a "tube amp" ?
     
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  3. York Audio

    York Audio
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    Cranking the Supply Sag will give you some nice tube-y feel.

    If things aren't sounding quite right to you, try running your phone into your mixer and play a record you know really well through your speakers. Immediately, you may find that it sounds harsh, or hollow in the midrange, or has way too much low end, etc... so EQ the channel until the album sounds right too you. When it feels balanced, plug your Axe in and you're set.

    Your FRFR cabs are essentially your own personal PA, so just as a FOH mixer tunes the PA to the room, tuning your cab to your rig will give you the most realistic results.

    For instance, I tweak all of my tones in my studio through monitors that I know really well. I compare those tones to album tones so I know exactly what's going to FOH. When we went into rehearsals, my IEM's were coloring the sound tremendously (TONS of low end and no clarity in the top end). Instead of going to Axe Edit and changing everything I put so much work into and causing a nightmare for FOH, I simply had our monitor guy EQ my mix to sound more natural by cutting some problem areas and boosting areas the IEM's were missing. The moral of the story is, tune your cabs first. It'll make your presets speak much better and make you tweak less.

    Anyway, hope this helps. Good luck!
     
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  4. bdcoach

    bdcoach
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    I habe owned, Marshalls, Fenders and Mesa Boogies.
    Lol when you asked all the questipns above like,
    "real" tube amp sound"
    The sound of listening to a guitar amp from various listening positions ?
    The sound of a mic'd up guitar cab played back through a house PA system ?
    The sound of a tube amp ran through an attenuator so it has a line out signal, either with or without a speaker emulation ?
    My answer is yes to all of the above, a real tube amp sound.
    A real tube amp just has rhat sound. And you know what The hell I am talking about.
    I know that the Fractal Audio prpducts have it in them. I am just looking for advice to help me find it. I have been uses to plug and play with tweaking the amp and some pedals. The Axe Fx is a hell of alot deeper and has all the amps and effecrs A guitarist would ever dream of. I do turn up the sag I have heard but have not yet tried just using 1/4 into the mixer instead of xlr's. We are not a big tour band we are a 2x a month band. We mainly play classic rock, i do like older metal as well.
     
  5. bdcoach

    bdcoach
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    I habe read of guys adjusting the motor drive and speakers drive as well.
     
  6. unix-guy

    unix-guy
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    None of those things sounds the same, so you really haven't answered the question.

    Keep in mind that hearing a traditional guitar amp and cab directly (from the speaker to your ears, not mic'd) is a very different sound than hearing a mic'd speaker through a PA, or in headphones or studio monitors.

    The Axe Fx direct to the PA is going to sound like a mic'd speaker through a PA... Not like a guitar cabinet in the room with you.

    Apparently not, or you would not have gotten the questions.

    Some advice: if you want help on this forum, the best thing you can do is provide detailed, specific questions. Answer questions as well as you can. Pay attention to the details of the answers that you get. Listen to what people are saying, even if you don't necessarily agree - they may be right, and worst case you might learn that they aren't... But then you know ;)
     
  7. lqdsnddist

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    Okay, since you've owned so many amps and are something of an expert with regards to what a tube amp is supposed to sound like, please indulge me to what this unmistakable sound is that a Mesa, Fender and Marshall all share ?

    See, I've owned lots of amps too, both tube and a few solid state ones like a JC120 and some mid 90's Randalls (Used to be a big Dimebag Darrell fan) and I've found there is no one "tube amp" sound, so I'm curious what this magical tone your hearing in your head actually is.

    My experience with tube amps as a whole (I feel like an angle choir should sing in the background when I type the mythical work "tube" lol) is that they all sound very, very different, from amp to amp, and especially with regards to how I listened to the amp

    I remember my first time going into a studio and laying down guitar tracks. I had my rig dialed in perfectly, or so I thought, because the sound I used to hear when jamming sounded NOTHING like the tone I was hearing through the studio's playback system. See, a guitar amp, tube or otherwise, sounds very very different if your standing in front of a speaker cab, especially with an open back cab like I used to use, and usually heard in a pretty small room.

    So the sound of a mic'd guitar and the sound of an amp when your standing in front of it sound very different.... thus the million "amp in room threads" we've had.

    Moving on, I used to run products like a Power Brake, Hot Plate, Weber MASS and other attentuators back when I was still using amps. Just couldn't handle the volume otherwise, and I tried a variety of cab emulators like a HK Redbox, Palmer etc. Found that my amps sounded, and felt very different when I could really crank them a fair bit, compared to the levels I often had to play at. I had a JCM800 2204 and really never was allowed to dime it at any venue I played (they were small places) and it sure responded differently when I did run the PowerBrake and had a chance to dime it at a buddies rehearsal space.

    So point two is tube amps can sound very different depending on how your able to use them, and most venues these days often have some volume limits.

    Additionally, when I owned attenuators with a line out, and used a RedBox it was rather different than the sound of mic'ing the real cabinet, but of course they made recording at home A LOT easier, but still they sounded different

    Long story short, tube amps do not have one unique sound, and how I think a tube amp sounds, based on how I use mine, verses how you think an amp sounds, based on what and where you play yours can be very different things.

    Thus my original post and questions of what does a tube amp sound like ? How are you running your rig ? Are you used to how your amp sounds when your standing in front of it or have you been recording/mic'ing cabs for years and have a dialed in mic placement and type of mic your used to using ?

    Also, keep in mind sound and feel are two different things. I've had vst software that can sound like a given amp (again, a recorded/mic'd amp) but it had no feel or dynamics. Axe-Fx has feel and dynamics....

    So now that we can hopefully both get on the same page with regards to what in your experience its supposed to sound like, and what you want it to sound like, steps can be taken to help you get there
     
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  8. ChrisCG

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    I think this might be a case of feel rather than tone. I have seen many people ask something similar to this. The Axe Fx and ax8 sound like real tube amps. In fact they sound just like the amps they have been modeled after. Unless you have a guitar cab behind you pushing air it won't feel the same as what you are use to.but the sounds....yeah the Axe sounds like whatever amp you pull up.
     
  9. bdcoach

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    Ok I think Unix guy has helped me as far as what I should ask.
    The Axe Fx direct to the PA is going to sound like a mic'd speaker through a PA... Not like a guitar cabinet in the room with you. How can I get the guitar cabinet in a room sound.
    I never claimed to be a know it all as far as amps go. I guess when I think of the amps I have had in the past as a warm creamy sound. Its hard to exsplain. Yes each one sounded different from one another but they all had a warm creamy full angel singing sound to them lol.
    I have heard alot of videos and other stuff done with the Axe fx that I love and am like yeah thats what I want.
    From coming from easy set ups anyways what I call easy set ups to the Axe fx and AX8 with so many options of tweaking it can be a little over whelming.
    And I think that Unix guy hit it on the head for me. Maybe I am expecting to get a guitar in a room with a cabinet sound out of my pa, and what I am getting is a mic guitar sound which is frustrating me and looking for help in you my fellow Fractal owners.
    I sold off all my amps and went with all powered QSC's thinking a much more compact and easy on the body as well as quality sound for a pa and as well as power for my axe fx. Like I said we are a small band of older guys that used to haul around all this mass equipment when we were much young. Going to compact and 1 to 2x gigging out a month band. I took the leap of faith in investing in the axe fx and selling off all the other equipment.
    I am sorry if I am coming off as a dumd ass, but I guess I am.
    I need your help in finding what I am looking for with what I have if possible.
    I don't dislile my sound, but once again I think I am expecting the cab in the romm sound and not the mic sound which is what is spunds like I am looking at.
     
  10. bdcoach

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    I think feel has a little to do with it but not as much as what I am expecting in the sound I am hearing.
     
  11. xrist04

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    The best way to get the "guitar cab in the room" sound is to use an actual guitar cabinet, driven by a power amp.
     
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  12. Callan

    Callan
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    Hey @bdcoach, can you explain a bit more how you have the speakers set up?
    I assume the subs and 12" face the crowd and the 10" faces back to the band?
    Do you have a pic of how it's all set up?
    What do you have in the monitor mix, is the speaker facing straight back at you?
    How many others in the band?

    It's certainly a change going from amp+cab to AXE+FRFR, but once you get it set and used to playing with it, you'll never go back (well you might.. I won't).
     
  13. lqdsnddist

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    Ah, so you don't want a tube amp "sound", you want the sound perception of a guitar cab "in the room". Big difference there.....

    Additionally, the "amp in room" sound is a variable thing, which most users forget. The off axis response/tone of an amp, when its directing the direct tone at your knees sounds quite different than if you sit on the floor and get the direct beaming effect right at your ears. Same thing with a angled vs straight 4x12 cab.

    FRFR, PA speakers et al., have far more even sound dispersion than guitar cabs. Guitar cabs are a very directional sound, and while it can sound great off axis, it can sound like an ice pick on axis. That is something many guitarist forget when playing live. The amp might sound great as they hear it on stage, but the folks in the front row, at ear level, are hearing the tone totally different, at least when using the amp as a backline.

    Bottom line is really that the only way you can capture the sound of your amp, in a specific physical space, is to be playing your guitar in that space. You can't record it because it won't sound the same, and you can't go elsewhere and expect it to sound the same. Heck, even people in the same room won't always perceive the tone the same, its position dependent.

    All of which are really reasons why IMO guitar cabs are a poor choice for most gigging musicians. If you ONLY play at home, the sound of a nice open back combo is super sweet. Rock on, more power to ya. However, if you want to have a repeatable tone, gig after gig,going direct works far, far better. It takes away most of the variables such as mic position, and dispersion.

    Instead of cranking it super loud so the drummer and bass player stage left can hear you, you get a far better spread so everyone on stage can hear you, at at lower volume, as a result, everyone can turn down.

    Additionally, the sound your playing through the FOH/PA system live, is the same sound you get when your record your guitar. No more issues with thinking your tone sounds totally different in the studio. Heck, most guys record guitars with the amps set up and mic'd in different rooms, and listen to their tone through the control room speakers.

    Hardly anyone sits in front of a 100watt amp dime'd these days, its way too loud, and its not giving an accurate tone to tape (err hard drive). No, you stick the cab off somehwere, in an iso-box etc, mic it, and monitor that mic'd tone. Even touring acts that still mic cabs usually have the mic'd cab off elsewhere, not blasting away on stage. Those cabs are just for show.

    A lot of guys who still use amps also use load boxes and IR's for FOH, such as the Torpedo line, or perhaps Fractals soon to be released load box (I have no specific insider info, fyi). Just makes life far, far easier.

    Essentially one just needs to change their concept of what a guitar sounds like.....

    Think about this for a moment, there is a whole generation of players who will ONLY know the sound of a guitar as what comes out of a modeler, aka, the mic'd guitar cab tone, because they will have never owned a real amp. How crazy is that huh ??
     
  14. unix-guy

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    Unfortunately the only answer is to use a guitar cabinet. Many guys here do just that. I did when I first started out. Some guys just can't gel with not having that, but many get used to it.

    However, if you think of it a different way, you might be able to adapt your thinking.

    All the great guitar sounds on every recording you love are a mic'd guitar cab - not a cab in a room, but a close mic'd speaker. Granted, there may be some room mic mixed in and almost certainly some reverb added to give it some "room".

    Start listening to your tones from that perspective and you can get your head around the difference.

    There are many, many threads about this topic... A key thing to note is that due to the nature of guitar cabs, only YOU will ever hear that tone. Because nobody else is standing in the same spot as you, and guitar cabs are very directional, as opposed to PA cabs that have a wide dispersion. One guy is gonna be getting ice-pick highs and the other guy's getting woolly mud.

    Now, if you mic that guitar cab and send it through the PA, at least the audience will all hear more or less the same thing, assuming your stage volume isn't to high.

    So, if you dial it in so it sounds good in the PA, it will sound good to everyone.

    I started typing this up before the others did but I got sidetracked before posting. Probably, I've repeated some of what they said...
     
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  15. bdcoach

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    We are a 3 pc band. Ok so this will be weird, the Powered K12s are set back behind us in practice and live as well as the berhinger 15" powered subs and the K10s are used as our monitors. We all use TC helicon voice libe play processors for vocals they really kick ass we never have feed back even at very loud levels atleast so far. The drummer uses a eletronic Roland drum set, a very good set with mesh heads. I think it is the V10 model. The bass player runs a line into the mixer from the back of his amp. We use a behringer Eurorack UB1832 FX-pro 10/14 channel mixer. I can get you the subs model if you need. I will snap some pictures.
     

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  16. bdcoach

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    I don't hate the sound I am getting but when I hear some many of other peoples videos or what have you with the Axe fx and AX8.Their sound is so much better then what I am getting. Their sound to me sounds like a real good kick ass amp. I have adjusted the Sag and tjat has helped I bought different cab packs and I habe found a couple I love.
    Could the mixing board have alot to do with my sound? I run all the EQ flat dead center and do any tweaking on the Fractals in Axe edit. The mixer had a feex back detection on it that we have on all the time. The over all mixer EQ is also ran flat dead center.
     
  17. bdcoach

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    I can't get the other photos to load, to large.
     
  18. bdcoach

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    I can try and post a recording if that would help. It is recorded through the control room out puts on the back of the mixer into a boss br800.
     
  19. lqdsnddist

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    You do realize that any video, sound clip etc you listen to online is of a recorded guitar tone and either a real mic'd cabinet, or a cab emulation/IR right ? Doesn't matter if its an Axe-Fx or someone had a real good kickass tube amp, either way they are sticking a mic in front of it record, or they are going direct (love how easy that is with USB audio on the Axe).

    Your hearing what the mic is hearing, not what the guitarist is hearing sitting in the room for their amp..... and that is good news

    Why ?

    Because it means that since that sound was recordable, it is also reproduceable. It also means that if you like what your hearing from those clips, that you actually like the sound of a close mic'd guitar amp!!!

    This is exactly why so many big touring acts are going Fractal. Because they can dial in tones that sound exactly like their album tones, song by song if they wish, album by album, and have all those tones the same each and every gig they play.

    How much EQ are you guys dialing in at your mixing board ? Your Axe may be outputting a nice tone, but if its running through a PA with a ton of coloration it may end up coming out poorly....

    Perhaps share a few patches so people can load them and listen to them with some accurate monitors and see how they sound. Your playing style, guitar, pickups etc will vary of course, but if you have a patch that sounds great to most people through good studio monitors, FRFR systems like a CLR or ASM12 etc, then it can narrow down where the issue is.

    I find my Atomic CLR which I use for living monitoring sounds near identical to my pretty high end Prosonus Scepter monitor speakers on my mixing desk. A good sounding patch sounds like a good sounding patch in other words
     
  20. Semih Yanyali

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    basics, (if you havent done yet) start with a low and hicut in the cab block. usualy there shouldnt be any of your guitar coming from the subwoofer also no unnecessary hi freq. roughly low cut between 75-125 hz and hicut 5500-7000 hz. ofcourse it also depends alot on your IRs and amp settings but i think its one of the most common mistake people going from guitar cab to FRFR do...too much low and hi end inorder to make it sound like a traditional guitar cab.
     
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