Trying FRFR... Not Digging It

marshall2553

Power User
UPS dropped off my QSC K12 today and I excitedly ran home to try it out. This is my first venture into FRFR other than playing through my studio monitors.

I must say that I don't get it at all, and yes I have power amp and cab sims on. I don't know how you FRFR guys do it. I know the FRFR vs. Amp in the Room thing has been debated ad nauseum but it just feels like there is a complete disconnect between my guitar and what's coming out of the speakers. No balls, no oomph, none of the sweet high-end detail that I hear playing through my guitar cab. Just weak mids and harsh highs. Different amp models also sound much more similar than they do through my guitar cab. Please tell me I'm missing something. If I'm this far from liking it with the stock cab sims is it even worth trying the Redwire IR's? I have a feeling the K12 will be going back.
 
Hey mate...sorry to hear that your impression was the opposite of mine...did you tweak your presets? 'cause mine sound way better on the K10 than on my Velocity 300 + my Mesa 1X12 combo. The factory presets (most of them) did sound good to me as well! Again I'm using a pair of K10s and I could not be any happier! Haven't had a gig since I got them but will be soon! I hope you take the time to do some tweaking before returning and good luck! :)
 
I remember spending an entire summer in 1994 learning and memorizing a Heitor Villa-Lobos guitar concerto, and by November, I was playing it well enough to win grand prize in the VMTA classical guitar competition.

Imagine how incomplete and undeveloped it would have sounded if I had stopped working on it after only a day...
 
I'll definitely spend some more time with it before sending it back. Mainly tried my patches and a couple from other forumites, I'll go back and see how the factory presets sound later tonight. It is just SO far from what I'm wanting to hear.
 
The IR's make a HUGE difference, so don't just try one with any given patch and give up...run through a few of them to see what comes out...even ones you wouldn't normally use may sound good.
 
gittarzann said:
The IR's make a HUGE difference, so don't just try one with any given patch and give up...run through a few of them to see what comes out...even ones you wouldn't normally use may sound good.
I flipped through every stock 4x12 IR with my Plexi patch and didn't find one that I liked. I'll spend more time with it, but if it doesn't work out it's no big loss. I am very happy with the sounds I get through my guitar cab.
 
I have been trying various FRFR solutions in preparation for a purchase. Although others on this forum have reported excellent results with the K10 and K12, I did not like the K12s at all. Very thin, excessive midrange, not what I would call balanced throughout the frequency spectrum. IMO, and as I said before, others have had differing results and opinions. So far, my top choice (after trying Yorkville NX55P, JBL PRX 512, EON 510, QSC K12, db Technologies M12-4 Plus, and RCF 312a)....the RCF 312a is the winner (although I very much like the db Technologies monitor - just was the wrong form factor - tried it just to see the quality of db Technologies to determine whether I should try their Opera 602D). Now, I am in the process of comparing the RCF to the the FBT Hi Maxx 40a and the db Technologies 602D, and potentially the FBT Verve 12ma. But so far, to my ears, the RCF 312a is my current favorite among those I've tested. YMMV.
 
marshall2553 said:
UPS dropped off my QSC K12 today and I excitedly ran home to try it out. This is my first venture into FRFR other than playing through my studio monitors.

I must say that I don't get it at all, and yes I have power amp and cab sims on. I don't know how you FRFR guys do it. I know the FRFR vs. Amp in the Room thing has been debated ad nauseum but it just feels like there is a complete disconnect between my guitar and what's coming out of the speakers. No balls, no oomph, none of the sweet high-end detail that I hear playing through my guitar cab. Just weak mids and harsh highs. Different amp models also sound much more similar than they do through my guitar cab. Please tell me I'm missing something. If I'm this far from liking it with the stock cab sims is it even worth trying the Redwire IR's? I have a feeling the K12 will be going back.

Kind of eye-opening to hear what your audience hears, ain't it? :eek:
 
QuadAllegory said:
Posts like these make me not sure if I should get the Atomic FR after all.

Don't let me discourage you. I do need more time with it, I just thought I'd be closer out of the box. I've read all the posts about FRFR vs "Amp In the Room" and I was still surprised by the huge difference in sound and feel. I tried some different mic sims and they helped some. I may buy one or two Redwirez IR's and give them a try too. And I may need to look into using a parametric or graphic EQ to tame some of the highs and lows.

Plus I'm just playing at home and doing a little recording for fun. If you're gigging I completely get why you'd want to go FRFR. I wanted to give it a try to get more variety by using the cab sims instead of the one guitar cab I have handy.
 
AFAIK most guys using FRFR are also using a PEQ after the cab - I know I've been doing this since day 1 with FRFR. Yes, you'd think the IRs should make it unnecessary but try it - it really helps. Radley put up a helpful thread on this a while back, but briefly, set bands 1 and 5 to blocking and leave Q at default 0.707 at first. Gain does nothing in blocking mode. Adjust frequencies to suit, but band 1 would be roughly in the 80 to 160 range, and band 5 in the 4K to 8K range. Then you can use bands 2, 3 and 4 for selected mid boost (or cut) if you like.
 
GM Arts said:
AFAIK most guys using FRFR are also using a PEQ after the cab - I know I've been doing this since day 1 with FRFR. Yes, you'd think the IRs should make it unnecessary but try it - it really helps. Radley put up a helpful thread on this a while back, but briefly, set bands 1 and 5 to blocking and leave Q at default 0.707 at first. Gain does nothing in blocking mode. Adjust frequencies to suit, but band 1 would be roughly in the 80 to 160 range, and band 5 in the 4K to 8K range. Then you can use bands 2, 3 and 4 for selected mid boost (or cut) if you like.

I'll give that a try tomorrow. I've been tinkering with AIR and it seems to add back some of what I feel the IR's suck out. Overall, I'm getting so-so tones. High gain and cleans seem to be easier to dial in. Fender break-up and Plexi, not so much. This coming from someone who is very pleased with their non-FRFR tones. I'm also noticing some latency. Just enough to not feel quite right, maybe the DSP in the QSC adds enough to be noticeable.
 
Not that I have an Atomic or other FRFR amp,(yet) but once I do actually get another guitar amp (haven't had one for years - just been a home studio muso), I have trouble imagining not using a FRFR system.
When I used to compare what I was hearing through my monitors (high-end Genelecs) and compared that to my amp (a Fender Twin) I always FAR preferred what I heard through my monitor speakers.
I was never happy with all those frequencies that were lost through a standard amp.
Just from a purely logical standpoint, FRFR seems the only way to go, if you want faithful replication of tone.

Surely it just needs to be tweaked more?
 
Keep working it... I remember when I made the transition and I had the same problems. If you can A/B with your FR cab using your guitar cab as a reference to tune some of your FR presets, it helped me out a lot. It won't work for all of them but it will give you better direction on how to tune things.
 
Sixstring said:
Keep working it... I remember when I made the transition and I had the same problems. If you can A/B with your FR cab using your guitar cab as a reference to tune some of your FR presets, it helped me out a lot. It won't work for all of them but it will give you better direction on how to tune things.

I've got it set up where the K12 is on Output 1 and my amp/cab are on Output 2 with no cab sim so it is very easy to A/B. FRFR just doesn't feel right, not as immediate or present. Kind of distant and anemic feeling compared to the real cab. I've liked my tone when playing through my studio monitors but it never "felt" right and that seems to be what I'm running into with the K12.
 
marshall2553 said:
UPS dropped off my QSC K12 today and I excitedly ran home to try it out. This is my first venture into FRFR other than playing through my studio monitors.

I must say that I don't get it at all, and yes I have power amp and cab sims on. I don't know how you FRFR guys do it. I know the FRFR vs. Amp in the Room thing has been debated ad nauseum but it just feels like there is a complete disconnect between my guitar and what's coming out of the speakers. No balls, no oomph, none of the sweet high-end detail that I hear playing through my guitar cab. Just weak mids and harsh highs. Different amp models also sound much more similar than they do through my guitar cab. Please tell me I'm missing something. If I'm this far from liking it with the stock cab sims is it even worth trying the Redwire IR's? I have a feeling the K12 will be going back.


When I first got my RCF 310a, it sounded as you described, crappy, harsh, etc. When I tried Dutch´s suggestion of combining the stock V30s and German cablnets in parallel, it sounded instantly awesome. Seems to me like paralleled cabs will take out the harshness in your sound, try it out! I like the V30s with U87 mic, or the SM57 for more bite, and German with U87.
 
i do not think that going direct or going the route of FRFR should be such a rocket science thing. for me, could not be more simple as that. i use it both ways and works. maybe i am just wrong, but no matter what amp i use, almost all of them sound good through the system at my church. i also tried to run my direct patches through my cab and amp...surprise, also good sounding.

my final point is when these problems come up is:

1. you have a bad day and nothing sounds good
2. you must be doing something wrong because it worked for me with nothing added fancy, just bare simple settings

but again, it might be just me...
 
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