Trying FRFR for a long time but not there yet.

REDD

REDD

Fractal Fanatic
I have been trying and trying but can't quite get the sound yet. I have my own Irs that sound better to me than factory ones but all I have besides my big tube amp rack and stack are QSC K-12's and I was starting to get a fairly good sound and then I decided to take them off the stands and use as floor wedges which is how I was thinking of gigging them but they don't sound good on the floor no matter how I put them. Most smaller clubs we play use these speakers as top cabs with subs under them so I thought they would get close to what they would sound like in the clubs. I want to go FRFR but my big rig sounds so good and I would rather drag around the big stuff for the better sound but I don't want to you know? I use De-phase some and that helps but I am almost done trying. It either sounds too bassy where the speaker is moving on the floor or not enough when I use the cut or turn the bass down.
 
I stand mine upright. don't like the wedge sound. I ran it in sub mode for a while, but it was too bassy at FOH, so back to normal flat. I cut my highs in the cab block at around 6-8k depending.. usually lower. Try standing it on end.
 
I'll try your suggestions and see how it goes, thanks!


dpeterson said:
I stand mine upright. don't like the wedge sound. I ran it in sub mode for a while, but it was too bassy at FOH, so back to normal flat. I cut my highs in the cab block at around 6-8k depending.. usually lower. Try standing it on end.
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They do sound better stood up. I like them on the speaker stands the best and thats probably the level people would hear them in a club but I don't need more gear to haul around and taking the stands would be a pain. I'm still trying and I'm not giving up yet with FRFR. I still like my amp and cab better right now.



dpeterson said:
I stand mine upright. don't like the wedge sound. I ran it in sub mode for a while, but it was too bassy at FOH, so back to normal flat. I cut my highs in the cab block at around 6-8k depending.. usually lower. Try standing it on end.
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The QSC-12's are decent consumer grade monitors, I think I'd prefer a (good) real speaker cab over them.

I hate to sound like a broken record but - the Atomic Amp CLR's are professional grade reference monitors with rock 'n roll SLP's - at a consumer price point.
I have a big traditionally touring rig gathering dust as I far prefer the Axe to the CLR's for sound quality (at any volume I might add!!), consistency and portability.

It's at the point now, that when I actually do use a real tube amp, I actually prefer to use it in conjunction with my Axe Fx loaded down, with a good IR and out to the CLR.
I take the Axe Fx loop out to the amp, go from the amp speaker out to a Palmer PDI-03, and take the Palmer out to the Axe Fx loop return. That way I have Axe Fx way, drives, vibe, term and more in from of the amp, a cab with a suitable IR after the loaded down amp, and delay and verb after the cab - perfect, I then have my tube amp at it's sweet spot at any volume.....kinda like using the Axe Fx without the tube amp, but now I can use the amps that are still not modeled.
The point I'm trying to get through is that the quality of the CLR's coupled with a good IR can beat a regular cab - FOR ME anyway.

I'd surest that you try out the CLR active wedges (which can be used as a wedge, cab or on poles) before you give up on FRFR.
Atomic Amps has a return period of 15 days IIRC, so at worst I'll cost you the shipping.
 
LOL - combine fever and a non-english auto-correct spelling check, and you'll get a lot of wrong words and wrong spelling, I see it as a recurrent pattern in all my posts from the last week - I hope the above post still makes sense.

REDD, I did an extensive review of the CLRs shortly after they were introduced, if you are interested in reading it do a search on my username and sonic bliss.
Now some 2 years later I'm just as much or perhaps even more so in love with the CLR's.
They have stood up to touring and rehearsals, they have been used daily since the review and have not made a hickup, not once !
Do I still enjoy playing a good tube amp through a great real cab - absolutely.
Do I feel that the Axe + CLR is in any way inferior - no way !!
Infact I'll take the Axe + CLR over any tube amp + cab any day of the week....unless it's a real expensive amb like a Dumble or Trainwreak and I'm allowed to sell it, buy an Axe + CLR and pocket the change :)
 
I wouldn't mind buying the CLR's but like I said previously, most small clubs here have K-12's for tops and thats what the audience will hear so I feel compelled to just stay amp and cab. I would hear the awesomness of the CLR's but the crowd would be hearing what I am currently hearing now trying to go FRFR with my K12's.
 
Most prosumer range PA tops, like the K12, are designed for the HF horn to be above ear level. The frequency response has designed in boosts and cuts to make the speaker heard in a crowded club.

If used as a conventional floor wedge, you will probably need to deal with excessive high and high mid frequencies (and possibly boomy lows).

This is where something like the CLR, Meyer, QSC professional etc. makes a difference. Neutral response from a wedge is easier on the ears. It also helps prevent microphone feedback.
 
REDD said:
I wouldn't mind buying the CLR's but like I said previously, most small clubs here have K-12's for tops and thats what the audience will hear so I feel compelled to just stay amp and cab. I would hear the awesomness of the CLR's but the crowd would be hearing what I am currently hearing now trying to go FRFR with my K12's.
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barhrecords said:
Most prosumer range PA tops, like the K12, are designed for the HF horn to be above ear level. The frequency response has designed in boosts and cuts to make the speaker heard in a crowded club.

If used as a conventional floor wedge, you will probably need to deal with excessive high and high mid frequencies (and possibly boomy lows).

This is where something like the CLR, Meyer, QSC professional etc. makes a difference. Neutral response from a wedge is easier on the ears. It also helps prevent microphone feedback.
Click to expand...

REDD you should absolutely do what you feel is best for you no matter what I or anybody else says, so these inputs are only food for thought for you, but there is a few important points I'd like to make and I think barthrecords points are excellent and spot on too.

If you dial in your tones on a truly great FRFR monitor they will translate better to other FRFR solutions, even on lesser monitors like the K-12's, as the input you give the FOH tech is the optimal or best output your rig can deliver.

Also, when you use the tube amp and cab on stage is that miced and sent to the FOH or used as a back line ?
If it's miced the audience will be just as well of with an Axe Fx output to the FOH (often better, depending on the micing techniques used, the room, the tech and other variables).
If the tube amp is used as a back line, I can guaranty you that the audience will get a better sound all around from a well tweaked Axe Fx preset through the FOH, as the sweet spot for a traditional is quite small in such a set-up.
So you'd probably do the audience a huge favor by sending an Axe signal to the FOH and perhaps also yourself if you use a pro grade wedge monitor like the CLR or similar quality (= that's >>> $ than the CLR).

I'll back out of this thread now, unless you have questions for me - I hope you find the best solution for you no matter what you choose.
 
Thanks, that really makes sense to me. I'm seriously thinking about some CLR's. They are by Atomic right? Order online direct? Thanks for all the input. I have the privilege of having all my gear at work with me and when its slow I work on my tweaking skills. I can get really good crunch type classic rock sounds but my main setting is Pantera punchy bouncy chunk and I can get so close to what I want and maybe the CLR's would give me what I need.

Rocket Brother said:
REDD you should absolutely do what you feel is best for you no matter what I or anybody else says, so these inputs are only food for thought for you, but there is a few important points I'd like to make and I think barthrecords points are excellent and spot on too.

If you dial in your tones on a truly great FRFR monitor they will translate better to other FRFR solutions, even on lesser monitors like the K-12's, as the input you give the FOH tech is the optimal or best output your rig can deliver.

Also, when you use the tube amp and cab on stage is that miced and sent to the FOH or used as a back line ?
If it's miced the audience will be just as well of with an Axe Fx output to the FOH (often better, depending on the micing techniques used, the room, the tech and other variables).
If the tube amp is used as a back line, I can guaranty you that the audience will get a better sound all around from a well tweaked Axe Fx preset through the FOH, as the sweet spot for a traditional is quite small in such a set-up.
So you'd probably do the audience a huge favor by sending an Axe signal to the FOH and perhaps also yourself if you use a pro grade wedge monitor like the CLR or similar quality (= that's >>> $ than the CLR).

I'll back out of this thread now, unless you have questions for me - I hope you find the best solution for you no matter what you choose.
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REDD said:
Thanks, that really makes sense to me. I'm seriously thinking about some CLR's. They are by Atomic right? Order online direct? Thanks for all the input. I have the privilege of having all my gear at work with me and when its slow I work on my tweaking skills. I can get really good crunch type classic rock sounds but my main setting is Pantera punchy bouncy chunk and I can get so close to what I want and maybe the CLR's would give me what I need.
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Yep - by Atomic Amps.

My favorite format is the active wedge, either regular or neo version depending on budget and whether the weight is an issue for you.
I have the regular and have no problem with their weight, but still I'd like to get a set of the Neo version if I get the chance at some point.

Here the linky: Products
 
Thanks, I didn't see the specs. Do you know how many watts they are and what type of amp is in them? I'll look again on the link and see what I can n find. Thanks again.

Rocket Brother said:
Yep - by Atomic Amps.

My favorite format is the active wedge, either regular or neo version depending on budget and whether the weight is an issue for you.
I have the regular and have no problem with their weight, but still I'd like to get a set of the Neo version if I get the chance at some point.

Here the linky: Products
Click to expand...
 
So I've been so close to pulling the trigger on the CLR's but have been hearing good things on the Friedman ASM-12's. My only concern is how my patches will translate to P.A. if I tweak my sounds through the Friedman's.
I wish Fractal would make some powered FRFR speakers! Does anyone know what Fractal might use for FRFR besides high dollar studio monitors?
 
Hey Redd,
I went through a similar experience. I was running the K12's way back when, but then I found I preferred the K10's better. Yeah they were lighter and easier to haul around, but I preferred the tone of the 10's over the 12's. Then I took a chance and without hearing one, I ordered up a RCF NX12SMA. This was a great wedge and a vast improvement over the QSC's. Then, after a year or so I did the same thing again and ordered up the active CLR wedge. I love it. It just seems to pair with the Axe FX beautifully. Super loud, very natural sounding. Turn your back on it and you'd swear it's a 4x12 cab behind you. So for my needs, the CLR does the trick perfectly.

After dialing in the Axe FX with the CLR, it was time to run it through the PA. Was I surprised when I heard the tone coming through the PA was quite different than what I heard through the CLR. We're running a pair of Fulcrum Acoustic tops for our PA which are extremely nice sounding. Nevertheless, the Axe FX sounded different through the Fulcrums vs the CLR. For the most part, it just meant tweaking the EQ on the guitar channel of the GLD80 mixing desk. No big deal, just ended up cutting some of the mids. For what it's worth, our band is all on in-ears now so I don't use the CLR wedge except for practicing. I still intend to keep it because it sounds so good. But I just felt compelled to encourage you to think about getting the best sound possible out of your PA and your monitor rig. In other words, have your cake and eat it too. I think you'll find that moving up from the QSC's to a higher grade monitor will be a very satisfying move. Just my two pennies worth. Remember, it's whatever makes your boat float. It's all good. Enjoy!
 
no matter how nice a PA is, it isn't going to flat, isn't meant to be....is meant to be heard, to cut, so certain freq's will always be accentuated/boosted, etc. Nice speakers will do it in a more pleasant/musical manner, but it's still there.
 
I would say that most PA's aren't flat due to cost/bad design rather than because they aren't meant to be....look to the audiophile world. As stated earlier the CLR is a perfect example of this as well. In a perfect world we would want the original source to be reproduced exactly as it was recorded/transmitted.
 
audiophile stuff for home listening and what is good for amplifying a performance for hundreds/thousands are VASTLY different things.
 
My "lesser monitor" K12 gets me compliments everywhere I go :) Last gig, the sound guy who is a respected guitarist said "dude you cracked the code, I don't know what you do different but I've heard other guys around town try to do the digital thing, but you have it licked." In 4+ years it's never failed either, and it has like an 11 year warranty or something stupid.

I don't understand the argument of if you tweak on the clr it will sound great on a k12 based pa, and tweaked with the k12 it wouldn't? In the end use what works for you. IMHO, YMMV.

Did trying positioning it differently work better? Different results?
 
dpeterson said:
My "lesser monitor" K12 gets me compliments everywhere I go :) Last gig, the sound guy who is a respected guitarist said "dude you cracked the code, I don't know what you do different but I've heard other guys around town try to do the digital thing, but you have it licked." In 4+ years it's never failed either, and it has like an 11 year warranty or something stupid.

I don't understand the argument of if you tweak on the clr it will sound great on a k12 based pa, and tweaked with the k12 it wouldn't? In the end use what works for you. IMHO, YMMV.

Did trying positioning it differently work better? Different results?
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honest question, did someone imply what you said about tweaking on the CLR would translate better? I glanced back over the thread but missed it.
 
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