• We would like to remind our members that this is a privately owned, run and supported forum. You are here at the invitation and discretion of the owners. As such, rules and standards of conduct will be applied that help keep this forum functioning as the owners desire. These include, but are not limited to, removing content and even access to the forum.

    Please give yourself a refresher on the forum rules you agreed to follow when you signed up.

True Story

la noise

Power User
This is actually the tale of a crime. :)

I have been listening to the other guitar player in a band I play with, using his Variax into Helix
setup, turn up louder and louder the past few weeks (to the point of now piping his rig through
the Monitors during rehearsal!!). We rehearse with a drummer on an acoustic kit and to keep from
becoming way too loud we mutually agreed to only pipe vocals through the Monitors and Mains
and use backline monitoring for our guitars.

This has apparently changed since I started to use the FM3 into the FX return of a tube
amp. Coincidence?? ;)

It's his place and he has unilaterally chosen to run his rig louder through the Monitors
and Mains than his backline. I can hear the singer struggling to keep up now. No shit!

I know that the other guitar player is literally trying to "drown" out the superior tones
he is hearing from my side of the room. ;)

While it's kind of funny, it's also damn annoying because I am not gonna do the volume wars
with a guy whose insecurity is now somehow conjoined with the slider on the Mains. ;)
 

OrganicZed

Experienced
Could this also be a case where the other guitarist is not dialing in their tone properly and is trying to use sheer brute force of dB to compensate for the fact that their tone doesn't sit well in the mix? This is a common problem for people who spend the majority their time playing by themselves and something that I have been guilty of myself.

If you dial in a tone by itself you instinctually want to hear a nice full sound (extra bass, some scooped mid range to even it out tonally, more gain). However, in a band mix it is better to tailor the tone to be leaner in the bass (so it doesn't interfere with the bass guitar / drums), to have more mid range (where most of the fundamental guitar frequencies sit naturally), and to back off the gain (so that you have more note separation and dynamic range). The Andertons guys talk about this in their videos some times as being a home musician tone vs a pro musician tone.
 

brokenvail

Fractal Fanatic
Could this also be a case where the other guitarist is not dialing in their tone properly and is trying to use sheer brute force of dB to compensate for the fact that their tone doesn't sit well in the mix? This is a common problem for people who spend the majority their time playing by themselves and something that I have been guilty of myself.

If you dial in a tone by itself you instinctually want to hear a nice full sound (extra bass, some scooped mid range to even it out tonally, more gain). However, in a band mix it is better to tailor the tone to be leaner in the bass (so it doesn't interfere with the bass guitar / drums), to have more mid range (where most of the fundamental guitar frequencies sit naturally), and to back off the gain (so that you have more note separation and dynamic range). The Andertons guys talk about this in their videos some times as being a home musician tone vs a pro musician tone.
More than likely this is the case
 

TSJMajesty

Power User
Could this also be a case where the other guitarist is not dialing in their tone properly and is trying to use sheer brute force of dB to compensate for the fact that their tone doesn't sit well in the mix?
That was also my initial thought. Just one of the many reasons I refuse to play with another guitarist in a band. Plus bands can be a struggle. If you're not experienced in how to translate a good tone into one that will sit well in the mix, you need to have some band time to do it, which everyone else in the band hates. But If you want the band to sound good live, ya gotta do it. I'm one of those guys who struggles to dial down my killer high-gain, scooped-mids tone, and the only way I know how to do it, is with the whole band. Out in front with my wireless. In the crowd to compensate for the effect they have on the EQ. (Not really all that, but yeah, it's tough, ime.)
 

la noise

Power User
I know you are not asking for opinions but I think the singer should speak up. They will hurt their voice

No kidding. If it was me singing I would do so in an instant.

I did say something last night. But how do you fight the mish-mash of ego and
insecurity and overcompensation when it is one of your best buddies and he has
not exhibited ANY of those tendencies in playing with him for nearly 20 years until
I went "digital" and got an FM3??
 

la noise

Power User
Could this also be a case where the other guitarist is not dialing in their tone properly and is trying to use sheer brute force of dB to compensate for the fact that their tone doesn't sit well in the mix? This is a common problem for people who spend the majority their time playing by themselves and something that I have been guilty of myself.

If you dial in a tone by itself you instinctually want to hear a nice full sound (extra bass, some scooped mid range to even it out tonally, more gain). However, in a band mix it is better to tailor the tone to be leaner in the bass (so it doesn't interfere with the bass guitar / drums), to have more mid range (where most of the fundamental guitar frequencies sit naturally), and to back off the gain (so that you have more note separation and dynamic range). The Andertons guys talk about this in their videos some times as being a home musician tone vs a pro musician tone.

You are spot on. He's a knowledgeable dude and gone the "digital" route as long as
we have been playing together. He's had the Helix for 5 years I think, and we talk about
"tone at home" and "tone with the band." He gets it. But I really feel like he has become
threatened somehow by me going Fractal and getting some killer tones. He's now
coming out of the Mains, 3 Monitors, and his own Backline (2 -12" FRFR speakers) and
the volume is just ridiculous for a group of guys rehearsing in a freaking garage.

I refuse to run out to the Mains or Monitors and just my amp and cab with the Fractal for
monitoring. More volume from me will not make any of this better, will it?? :)
 

la noise

Power User
That was also my initial thought. Just one of the many reasons I refuse to play with another guitarist in a band. Plus bands can be a struggle. If you're not experienced in how to translate a good tone into one that will sit well in the mix, you need to have some band time to do it, which everyone else in the band hates. But If you want the band to sound good live, ya gotta do it. I'm one of those guys who struggles to dial down my killer high-gain, scooped-mids tone, and the only way I know how to do it, is with the whole band. Out in front with my wireless. In the crowd to compensate for the effect they have on the EQ. (Not really all that, but yeah, it's tough, ime.)

Sounds reasonable to me. :)

Yeah.... he's a good dude and good player. But I hear you. Multi-guitar bands
are rough if one of them is not playing acoustic. ;)

I miss the days when you had a sound person and they usually didn't pull any
punches, and were not IN the band, so they could piss someone off by telling
them to turn down, or up, or their tone was bad, or they were singing harmonies
off key---all of which happened to me at one time or another. I even recall having a
Mic in front of me and the band wanting me to mime background vocals even
though the sound guy had my Mic muted on the board. WTF?!

That hurt, and lit a fire under my ass to work on my harmonies so my Mic was not
on one night when I was feeling good and muted the next when I was sucking ass.
I sucked ass too much.

Oh, and it is his place so he can set everything up like he wants before we arrive, and
or tell us to get f****ed! if we piss him off by telling him to turn down. ;)
 

TSJMajesty

Power User
Once when I was arguing that the bass & drums were too loud, I waited for a song where those players were mostly focused on themselves, and I barely played in that song. Then I told them that's what I had done to reinforce my complaint. They turned down.
 

TSJMajesty

Power User
Oh, and it is his place so he can set everything up like he wants before we arrive, and
or tell us to get f****ed! if we piss him off by telling him to turn down. ;)
Oh screw that. He's not being a team player. Buddy or not, I'd be looking for a new band.

In my last band, so many of my suggestions got instantly down-voted by the guy (best friend since I was 15) who owned the PA, keys, drums, and the rehearsal space, that I finally just quit. He started to give the band one of "those" talks about how things need to be, and I could see where it was headed, so I cut him off, said I'd make it easy for him, and told him I was done, which he didn't want. (I'm the kind of guy who's a bit abrasive, says what needs to be said, but I come to rehearsal knowing the songs, especially all the changes, I dial in great tones, I look for things that compliment the song, and I play with a certain drive and energy, sing some lead, and carry good harmonies, so he really didn't want me to leave. But he has LSD (lead singer disease: his way or the highway.))

I once suggested we play R.O.C.K. in the U.S.A., that it rocked, was so simple we could work it up in no time, and it played right into "What I Like About You", so we could make it into a medley. "Oh I hate John Cougar." Yeah? Me too, but a good song is a good song. Finally we ran it one night. We were stoked how easy it was, how quick we could say, "Well that one's done," and how good it sounded. We not only added it to our set, it became our closer. That's when I knew I was really getting tired of his BS.

I got the last laugh though, because it took them about a year, and like 5 different guys, to finally replace me with a guy who's not nearly as dynamic a player, and has so-so tones at best. And the funniest thing was, I'd keep hearing from the keyboard player how this new guy was really starting to get tired of hearing, "Hey, when Tom used to play that song, he would do X, Y, & Z, and it really made the song. Could you try that?" And I could play the solo to My Sharona, and he can't. (And they still refuse to just cut it! haha)

When I get the least little feeling of not totally looking forward to Wednesday nights, I'm done. It's gotta be FUN first, because it sure ain't for the money!
 

la noise

Power User
Man, I sure do appreciate you being straight shooter. I needed to hear that. :)
He's still a friend and we hang out even when we are not playing music together.
Maybe he's at a point where he doesn't give a shit and wants to do it his way
no matter what kind of feedback he gets. I don't know. I only it seems the Fractal
has gotten his dander up a bit.

You are right about the fun being first. That should be the number one rule.
I still have fun. Just not as much as I used to pre-Fractal.

That sucks you had to bow out of a situation that sounds like you once enjoyed.
You guys still "best buds?" :)

Oh, and Medleys like that rock. You pull people in that way. Great call! :)
 

TSJMajesty

Power User
Oh yeah, we're totally fine. Maybe due in part to my quitting. In fact, we're getting together next week to rehearse for a drop in outdoor acoustic gig where we'll play 6-10 songs. Actually, I'm secretly planning on using my Majesy's piezo through some clean lush Axe presets (I haven't touched my acoustics in years, lol), but more so, getting the chance to show him I've been real busy becoming a better player, and of course showing off the Axe3, hehehe (he has a Helix.)
Yes, it was a fun band, but I can't be ruled by a dictator.
 

Intoodeep1113

Inspired
Why don't you ask the guy if something is wrong? Don't need to be sneaky and try all sorts of stuff.
Some ideas:
Hey man, I noticed you are playing way louder than usual. Are you having trouble hearing yourself?
Am I too loud?
Is my setup change coving the sonic space you used to sit in?
I notice that the singer is straining to keep up, it sounds better and it's safer for him when he isn't.
When you play that loud, there isn't much value in having another guitarist.

It seems like anything short of direct and kind will be perpetuating volume wars and ego acts. You say he's been a buddy for 20 years, there must be some sort of relationship there
 

ben ifin

Experienced
Could this also be a case where the other guitarist is not dialing in their tone properly and is trying to use sheer brute force of dB to compensate for the fact that their tone doesn't sit well in the mix? This is a common problem for people who spend the majority their time playing by themselves and something that I have been guilty of myself.

If you dial in a tone by itself you instinctually want to hear a nice full sound (extra bass, some scooped mid range to even it out tonally, more gain). However, in a band mix it is better to tailor the tone to be leaner in the bass (so it doesn't interfere with the bass guitar / drums), to have more mid range (where most of the fundamental guitar frequencies sit naturally), and to back off the gain (so that you have more note separation and dynamic range). The Andertons guys talk about this in their videos some times as being a home musician tone vs a pro musician tone.
5 years or not is irrelevant - the guy clearly has no idea how to dial-in / eq his tones -or- quite possibly his hearing isn't that great anymore -> this is a serious and growing problem in society generally [ regardless of digital amp modelling ] put down almost exclusively to the habitual / almost "24/7" use of in-ear-buds at "louder always sounds better volumes". Also he could just want to be louder because he is "audio selfish" / just wants to be "the loudest" because the world needs to "hear him play" ...... these guys really do exist.

I'd just tell him to turn down / refuse to play with him if he persists.

I really feel for your singer :(

Either way, the rigs being used have nothing to do with the situation.

Ben
 

pauly

Fractal Fanatic
Hi @la noise
Did you speak to him about it? Might be all that's needed.
Thanks
Pauly

This is actually the tale of a crime. :)

I have been listening to the other guitar player in a band I play with, using his Variax into Helix
setup, turn up louder and louder the past few weeks (to the point of now piping his rig through
the Monitors during rehearsal!!). We rehearse with a drummer on an acoustic kit and to keep from
becoming way too loud we mutually agreed to only pipe vocals through the Monitors and Mains
and use backline monitoring for our guitars.

This has apparently changed since I started to use the FM3 into the FX return of a tube
amp. Coincidence?? ;)

It's his place and he has unilaterally chosen to run his rig louder through the Monitors
and Mains than his backline. I can hear the singer struggling to keep up now. No shit!

I know that the other guitar player is literally trying to "drown" out the superior tones
he is hearing from my side of the room. ;)

While it's kind of funny, it's also damn annoying because I am not gonna do the volume wars
with a guy whose insecurity is now somehow conjoined with the slider on the Mains. ;)
 

laxu

Power User
I think you are really projecting here more than anything. I don't think your other guitarist is "intimidated by your superior Fractal tones" at all. Owning both the Helix Floor and a FM3 I can get very similar sounds out of them through the same output system. Which to use comes down to what features you value most.

You need to talk about the situation as it makes the whole band sound worse if the singer can't be heard. My experience is that with the FM3 Cygnus update you now get a lot fuller tone out of the Fractal compared to older firmware so maybe it could be that you are taking more space in the mix than before and might need to cut some lows to fit in better?
 

ElectricPhase

Power User
Volume wars suck. From experience, sometimes they happen without conscious intent. One guy is seething with righteous indignation, while the other doesn't even know there's anything wrong.

As others have said, talk it over....and don't start off angry. The guy may not be trying to step on you at all.
 
Top Bottom