Trouble cutting through the mix

Kidmag

Kidmag

Member
Well.... a little depressed this morning. Played my AX8 for the first time with the band last night (running through an Atomic CLR on floor in front of me and through the PA). There was good and there was bad. Clean sounds were for the most part great. Lead tones for the most part were good, however I do need to set-up a way to adjust the lead volume on the fly. The bad was that in general my crunch tones just didn't cut through. My tones also, in general lacked punch and were too tiny. And dynamics wise it felt less responsive - meaning when I really dug in I didn't feel the leap in grit and volume as much as I'm used to with my tube amps. In general it would sound great when no one else was playing, but then when the band kicked in, I got buried - but I really don't think it was a volume thing - I was plenty loud.

Now it had taken me years and years to develop my tube amp sounds - and truthfully there were limitations and weaknesses that have me exploring the digital zone.

But I guess my question is: Are creating presets that sound great live a skill that develops over time (btw 3 of my 5 presets I used were built off of Fremen 5 gain stage presets)? Or is what I'm describing something that is always a bit of a struggle? (don't get me wrong, for playing at home through monitors I'm in love with the sounds I'm getting from AX8- but it just didn't hold up under band conditions last night in some critical areas).
 
I'm fairly new to this approach as well, and not only do you have the typical "you need set your tones at performance levels" but add in a PA that you don't have access to except for rehearsals and every other sound created during full rehearsal. It sounded so different to me at first I struggled, too. Somewhere Cliff wrote a great post about getting accustomed to hearing the sound of a mic'd cabinet, not a cabinet.

I'll only offer two quick things you might try (I'm certain others will chime in with better advice):
  1. Turn up the high end or bring down the low end of your preset. It can be the life or death of guitar in a live mix.
  2. Don't be afraid to be a little louder than you think you should be. :) It's really hard to judge tone when you're being considerate at rehearsal.
 
Was the CLR in Tilt mode?

I like the GEQ block in 5 band passive mode after my cab block to make quick adjustments.

A little low mids (1-2db for more balls) and little more mids (2-3db for cutting the mix) from that block should get you there.
 
I actually had to dial back presence and high's on a lot of my crunch tones, they were sounding thin and rattly. So I was boosting mids and lows to try and get more punch - which improved things. As they are someone else's presets basically, its clear I need to set them relative to my guitars. I asked the band to be patient as its pretty clear I need tweak on the fly quite a bit. It would be such a convenient and eloquent solution if I can get this work....
 
Barhrecords - Good question on the CLR - not sure I'll check that. Also I'm not familiar with the GEQ block, so that's something to research tonight. Also I do love being able to just turn the Amp dials (which helped), but I struggled last night to quickly find and edit FX parameters (reverb, compression and drive). I do need to spend more time without it connected to AXE-edit, so I can make these adjustments at rehearsal.
 
Kidmag said:
Also I'm not familiar with the GEQ block, so that's something to research tonight. Also I do love being able to just turn the Amp dials (which helped), but I struggled last night to quickly find and edit FX parameters (reverb, compression and drive). I do need to spend more time without it connected to AXE-edit, so I can make these adjustments at rehearsal.
Click to expand...
The GEQ and PEQ are great because they're very low CPU. Also, if you just hit SHIFT and SETUP and scroll to Global OUT1/OUT2 there are EQs that affect the entire unit.
 
I know my set up was a bit different as I was using a GT-100 and IEM's,.. but my patches always sounded a bit different when I got to the venue,.. I typically just adjusted the front panel EQ settings and saved it real quick.... usually didn't take a lot though... Haven't had a chance to get my AX8 dialed in for live use yet,... should be fun :D
 
Too much gain (or saturation) and reverb can do this to you. I tend to dial both of these back quite a bit for my live tones and they cut through better than anyone else in the band.
 
Dial in tones at gig levels. Use less gain and more mids. Scooped mids = lost in mix.

Trying a few different IR's is also a good step.

For what it's worth, I have never, ever, ever had any luck using someone else's preset. You might try making a preset by starting with an amp you are familiar with in the real world and an IR that you like and go from there.

Stick with it. You'll get there!
 
ethomas1013 said:
For what it's worth, I have never, ever, ever had any luck using someone else's preset.
Click to expand...

This is true for me as well, but I've helped other people dial in presets when they couldn't wrap their ahead around all the details - I can start with what works for me and then I have to make adjustments for their guitar, hands, and ears. This has to be done in person with guitar in their hand of course.
 
ethomas1013 said:
Stick with it. You'll get there!
Click to expand...

That's pretty much exactly what I needed to hear. Back to lab tonight. And funny you guys mentioned using your own presets. The one I spent the least amount of time having to tweak was a preset I made with the Dr. Z Route 66 amp, an amp I'm very familiar with..
 
With regard to taming high and low end, what worked for me was adjusting the high and low filters in the cab block. Once I did that I was back on track for adjusting the amp eq. It helped me tame the harsh high end I was hearing in some of my patches when I was starting to use FRFR cabs.
 
MikeD said:
With regard to taming high and low end, what worked for me was adjusting the high and low filters in the cab block. Once I did that I was back on track for adjusting the amp eq. It helped me tame the harsh high end I was hearing in some of my patches when I was starting to use FRFR cabs.
Click to expand...

Ok - I also will be checking that out. The harsh high-end, was probably the second largest problem I had. Thanks for tip. I'll look into the cab block as well.
 
Kidmag said:
Ok - I also will be checking that out. The harsh high-end, was probably the second largest problem I had. Thanks for tip. I'll look into the cab block as well.
Click to expand...
I don't have my equipment here but I do recall that filtering the high end in the cab block (can't remember parameter name) between 6000 and 7500 worked out with the IR I was using.
 
Kidmag said:
The one I spent the least amount of time having to tweak was a preset I made with the Dr. Z Route 66 amp, an amp I'm very familiar with..
Click to expand...

That is my experience also - keep it simple. I bought a preset that had a lot of delays, reverbs, etc. and it just got buried in rehearsal with band. I got rid of that and just built a simple preset that works great but is not an 'exact' match of original recording - but good enough for live. As others said, reduce the reverb and reduce the gain may help too. Most of my presets are simple and built on amps like Deluxe Reverb, Twin, Marshall - they all cut through the mix fine - and I'm the only one in my band playing direct to board.
 
db2112 said:
That is my experience also - keep it simple. I bought a preset that had a lot of delays, reverbs, etc. and it just got buried in rehearsal with band. I got rid of that and just built a simple preset that works great but is not an 'exact' match of original recording - but good enough for live. As others said, reduce the reverb and reduce the gain may help too. Most of my presets are simple and built on amps like Deluxe Reverb, Twin, Marshall - they all cut through the mix fine - and I'm the only one in my band playing direct to board.
Click to expand...

The Fractal is so versatile, I wouldn't give up on delay and reverb.

Try ducking and also the EQ builtin to the reverb block. Add a high pass up around 300hz and 4-6db of ducking and you can retain a very wet reverb mix that still cuts through the band. Quite satisfying to be able to do this in the box.
 
Freman's presets are fantastic, but given what you are saying, I would grab the amp preset pack from yek (free).
Very simple presets, amp, cab reverb mostly.
Get your core sound going, then add the flavour on top.
I find yek's presets work very well for me playing live.

Btw, my experience first up was the same as yours, but it does get a whole lot better.
 
Amp and box (IR) - the first two things which have to work in an bandsound. If they don´t - try another one.
All my presets have raw settings one scene one, without any effect.

The Preamblock in the cabblock is great to make any IR better, quick and dirty.

you might get lost with additional EQ´s pre and post the Amp and IR.

As been said - less gain, more cut.

Good Luck!
 
Quick Update and Thank you!

I didn't have a lot of time last week to tweak things before rehearsal last night (I was out of town skiing with family all week; tough life I know). But taking all the great advice given I quickly did the following the night before:

* Reduced reverbs, shortening time and reducing mix.
* Adjusted filters on all my cab blocks, 80hz on the low and either 6k or 7.5k on the highs (6k for the distorted amps and 7.5K for the clean/cleanish amps)
* Put a simple 5 band GEQ after every cab block - which I left flat.

Then during practice, at gig volumes, I would quickly edit the GEQ block by upping the low mids, and mids between usually 2db and 5dbs. I think on one amp (JCM 800) I took the highs down a bit too, and that was about it.

I have to say, REAL PROGRESS was made. I was definitely cutting through the mix much better without the piercing ear fatigue setting in and I could see/ feel real potential. Was it perfect? No. Did I wrestle with volume issues? Yes (btw I didn't realize how much adjusting the GEQ would effect volume).

BUT, I can see DAYLIGHT and fully expect that I will get myself to a place where I have several great tones that cut nicely with the band dialed and I really don't think its going to take but a few more practices to have a great foundation.

Anyway, I just want to thank the forum - you guys taking the time to float some advice has REALLY helped me.

(BTW there are other pieces of advice provided I will be checking out in the future, but in my limited time actually being able to sit with my AX8, the above is what I went for).

Thanks!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom