triode hardness/MIMMIC

I have to say I have noticed a big difference and I am not sure where I stand on it. I know that this past week end was my 1st gigs after tweaking the new FW and on stage i run through a Head & Cab. I felt that I got lost in the mix as opposed to how I used to cut through...
 
I've also gone “back to the future” using version 6 firmware, just because like it better, and that’s all that really matters.

There are many different attributes* of what I call amp tone. Version 6 has more of the things I like and less of the things I don't than later versions. The original vision of the Axe-FX was to deliver “idealised modelling” and for me, version 6 does this better than any other. Later versions are probably more popular with others around here. For the tones I like, I find I can dial them in BEYOND what I can get from tube amps.

I must say I'm disappointed by the popular view that accurate tube replication is ultimate tone, and that anything that varies from that implies that tone is worse. Of course many tube amps can deliver awesome tone, but what if you could emphasise the things you like most about this tone and minimise the things you like least? Then your tone would be better!

There’s no doubt in my mind that V10 delivers the most realistic amp modelling I’ve ever heard. It’s an awesome achievement personally from Cliff with the technology. What this means is that it also accurately models some the things I don’t particularly like in real amps that are difficult to dial out. This isn’t a criticism of V10, Fractal Audio, or even real tube amps – it’s just my personal preference for a different type of overdrive character.

* Just off the top of my head, here are a few “attributes” of tube tone, some of which players would always prefer to maximise or minimise, others that would be changed for different tones:

> Transparency: how well the source timbre is maintained (the guitar character, pickup selections, picking position and technique, etc)
> Compression: how output volume varies over time, recovery time, etc
> Dynamics: how drive level varies with input volume (gradually vs “sudden onset”, etc)
> Intermodulation Distortion: additional notes due to multiple notes or just single note harmonics, vs note articulation
> “Hair”: how much the amp adds additional interference when operating beyond normal limits (power supply hum, instability, etc)
> Overdrive harmonic content: the overdrive character
> Input tone balance: how drive amount varies with frequency
> Output tone balance: the final amp tone
> and probably many more 8)

Of course, all of these change with dynamics (both instantaneous and "recent history"), which adds in more variation. Maybe an ideal amp model would have low level and high level settings for these attributes? And they interact with each other in the real world.
 
willowdale said:
Blasphemy!!! Forgive him Lord for he knows not what he's missing.......
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LOL! too funny... to be truthful, my last band was ALL Les Paul Marshall tones. But a 10piece soul band doesn't have much need for ACDC tones! :)

FWIW, the Marshall tones with a Les Paul are rather good with FW10.
 
GM Arts said:
I've also gone “back to the future” using version 6 firmware, just because like it better, and that’s all that really matters.

There are many different attributes* of what I call amp tone. Version 6 has more of the things I like and less of the things I don't than later versions. The original vision of the Axe-FX was to deliver “idealised modelling” and for me, version 6 does this better than any other. Later versions are probably more popular with others around here. For the tones I like, I find I can dial them in BEYOND what I can get from tube amps.

I must say I'm disappointed by the popular view that accurate tube replication is ultimate tone, and that anything that varies from that implies that tone is worse. Of course many tube amps can deliver awesome tone, but what if you could emphasise the things you like most about this tone and minimise the things you like least? Then your tone would be better!

There’s no doubt in my mind that V10 delivers the most realistic amp modelling I’ve ever heard. It’s an awesome achievement personally from Cliff with the technology. What this means is that it also accurately models some the things I don’t particularly like in real amps that are difficult to dial out. This isn’t a criticism of V10, Fractal Audio, or even real tube amps – it’s just my personal preference for a different type of overdrive character.

* Just off the top of my head, here are a few “attributes” of tube tone, some of which players would always prefer to maximise or minimise, others that would be changed for different tones:

> Transparency: how well the source timbre is maintained (the guitar character, pickup selections, picking position and technique, etc)
> Compression: how output volume varies over time, recovery time, etc
> Dynamics: how drive level varies with input volume (gradually vs “sudden onset”, etc)
> Intermodulation Distortion: additional notes due to multiple notes or just single note harmonics, vs note articulation
> “Hair”: how much the amp adds additional interference when operating beyond normal limits (power supply hum, instability, etc)
> Overdrive harmonic content: the overdrive character
> Input tone balance: how drive amount varies with frequency
> Output tone balance: the final amp tone
> and probably many more 8)

Of course, all of these change with dynamics (both instantaneous and "recent history"), which adds in more variation. Maybe an ideal amp model would have low level and high level settings for these attributes? And they interact with each other in the real world.
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Maybe Cliff can make more amps that are idealized. I mean, he already made the FAS Modern which is his idea of an ultimate high gainer, as well as others. I'm hoping that Cliff makes more of these amps that are uber hard or impossible to make in the real world.
 
GM Arts said:
I've also gone “back to the future” using version 6 firmware, just because like it better, and that’s all that really matters.

There are many different attributes* of what I call amp tone. Version 6 has more of the things I like and less of the things I don't than later versions. The original vision of the Axe-FX was to deliver “idealised modelling” and for me, version 6 does this better than any other. Later versions are probably more popular with others around here. For the tones I like, I find I can dial them in BEYOND what I can get from tube amps.

I must say I'm disappointed by the popular view that accurate tube replication is ultimate tone, and that anything that varies from that implies that tone is worse. Of course many tube amps can deliver awesome tone, but what if you could emphasise the things you like most about this tone and minimise the things you like least? Then your tone would be better!

There’s no doubt in my mind that V10 delivers the most realistic amp modelling I’ve ever heard. It’s an awesome achievement personally from Cliff with the technology. What this means is that it also accurately models some the things I don’t particularly like in real amps that are difficult to dial out. This isn’t a criticism of V10, Fractal Audio, or even real tube amps – it’s just my personal preference for a different type of overdrive character.

* Just off the top of my head, here are a few “attributes” of tube tone, some of which players would always prefer to maximise or minimise, others that would be changed for different tones:

> Transparency: how well the source timbre is maintained (the guitar character, pickup selections, picking position and technique, etc)
> Compression: how output volume varies over time, recovery time, etc
> Dynamics: how drive level varies with input volume (gradually vs “sudden onset”, etc)
> Intermodulation Distortion: additional notes due to multiple notes or just single note harmonics, vs note articulation
> “Hair”: how much the amp adds additional interference when operating beyond normal limits (power supply hum, instability, etc)
> Overdrive harmonic content: the overdrive character
> Input tone balance: how drive amount varies with frequency
> Output tone balance: the final amp tone
> and probably many more 8)

Of course, all of these change with dynamics (both instantaneous and "recent history"), which adds in more variation. Maybe an ideal amp model would have low level and high level settings for these attributes? And they interact with each other in the real world.
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Wow, you made some very interesting points, worth enough to think a bit longer about ideals and accuracy.
 
GM Arts said:
The original vision of the Axe-FX was to deliver “idealised modelling”.
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not so sure about that. each new firmware strived for more realistic tones. took some time, but with MIMIC Cliff nailed it. any modeler that's been out there tried to sound as accurate as possible, most of them just failed. I find it kinda funny that people suddenly start asking for the Axe Fx to sound more like a modeler again.
to get "polished" sounds isn't really that hard. there isn't some kind of magic producers use as long as the amp and the cab sounds right from the start and we've got both covered.

...and if I had to describe how 10 sounds in one word, it would definitely NOT be "thin"...
 
VegaBaby said:
I find it kinda funny that people suddenly start asking for the Axe Fx to sound more like a modeler again.
to get "polished" sounds isn't really that hard. there isn't some kind of magic producers use as long as the amp and the cab sounds right from the start and we've got both covered.
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I think it's funny how all the versions leading up to this, a lot of people would say "I dont have to tweak advanced stuff, just set the model and twist a few knobs and done." now it seems like it's the opposite now IMHO, I find myself living in advanced menu tweaking all kinds of stuff. I think amps can be improved upon while maintaining their character. But I also understand what Cliff was going for, It's just now it's a little harder for some to get the sounds (or not at all) that they were used to getting easily.
 
dpeterson said:
I think it's funny how all the versions leading up to this, a lot of people would say "I dont have to tweak advanced stuff, just set the model and twist a few knobs and done." now it seems like it's the opposite now IMHO, I find myself living in advanced menu tweaking all kinds of stuff. I think amps can be improved upon while maintaining their character. But I also understand what Cliff was going for, It's just now it's a little harder for some to get the sounds (or not at all) that they were used to getting easily.
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and I'm probably one of those who isn't using the Advanced stuff that much anymore. before, I always tried to make my amps sound more raw and needed to tweak. now they actually ARE raw and all I sometimes do is make them even more "broken" sounding. and...I actually work as a session guitarist, so I kinda know what works and what producers want and how they "polish". now the Axe sounds like it's supposed to, like the amp it's "modeling". if anyone wants it to sound polished, that's actually easier to accomplish than the other way around...
 
VegaBaby said:
and I'm probably one of those who isn't using the Advanced stuff that much anymore. before, I always tried to make my amps sound more raw and needed to tweak. now they actually ARE raw and all I sometimes do is make them even more "broken" sounding. and...I actually work as a session guitarist, so I kinda know what works and what producers want and how they "polish". now the Axe sounds like it's supposed to, like the amp it's "modeling". if anyone wants it to sound polished, that's actually easier to accomplish than the other way around...
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For my taste in tones I agree.

It is much easier to subtract from a great raw amp tone than try to coerce a tone that is missing something into the track.

Richard
 
FractalAudio said:
IMO, much of what people are hearing as different are the new cabinet models. Many of the factory cab IRs were remixed for V10. I've been contemplating asking Mike at Redwirez if I can issue the old mixes as user downloads.
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I've really been struggling coping with the new modelling paradigm in v 10, and I can fully relate to what's expressed elsewhere in this thread about missing the idealised, perhaps less real but still punchy and rich tone from earlier FW versions, and even the Ultra.

However, what has been a turning point to me, has been to experiment with the IRs, not just fiddling with the amp model itself. It might seem obvious, but I was totally surprised by how different (for the better) my earlier favourite amps would sound with other IRs, and how much better everything both felt when playing and sat in the mix.

This took a complete recalibration of my ears, forcing myself to listen to the same amp through different IRs, which initially can be hard, as what one perceives as the best tone has a lot to do with habits, what you're used to, etc. Again, it might seem obvious, but it really turned everything upside down.

The result is that I've brought back the punch and clarity of my favourite amp tones, but with different IRs. The difference might not be as pronounced with every setup, but in my case, scrapping my favorite IR, which I firmly believed was vital to my amp sound, really made all the difference in the world. With my old combo of amp/ir, everything sounded better when reverting to v 9, both as a full reinstallment of v 9 and using the triode hardness off/mimic off/switch back to modelling vX in the global menu-trick. Now, everything sounds better with v 10, and I find A LOT of the amps much better sounding and usable. For the first time, I'm using a Fender amp along with a Marshall type amp live, rather than just finding one favourite and using my guitar volume for cleans.

Lesson learned: The IRs not only make up a large part of the sound and response/player interaction, but they also interact with the amp. And in my experience more so (or perhaps more pronounced) in v 10, which makes for a lot of useful sounds, and a couple of pitfalls.
 
666was999 said:
When you have that one magical working horse preset, that sound that worked so well, everywhere in the rehearse and on stage, and you have to find it again and even when you think you have it again you can not be sure that it is the same as before until you had some reheareses and gigs again with the new one....you never know how long it takes and where you're going to. You need a bit of free time and more rehearses and less gigs to make that step.
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I agree.....especially with major FW updates. However, what I do is I weigh the benefits of the update as it relates to my shows. I backup first and if it is significantly off on the tones I roll back and later re-update and tweak during the loll periods. Sometimes 2 or 3 days of free time affords me the time to re-tweak my presets, and I use many!

I find that V.10 significantly offset the parameters as did everyone else! I held off updating and did the update during my several days off between gigs.

I always desire and look forward to updates and improvements in all aspects of the Axe...as everyone here!

Though I have not tried this, I wonder if V.10 users tried using the previous FW versions on the Global Menu and turning off MIMIC, then re-tweak accordingly around the new updated parameters taking special care to call up the proper cabs used before the update (not the producer mixed irs).

I'm thinking this should recall the "Idealized Modeled" amps and polished studio tones some say they prefer.
 
I still don't buy the argument that V10 is so close to real amps that it models even the lousy characteristics. I have owned one real amp in my entire life, and sold it shortly thereafter. It's been modelers then on out. I have no frame of reference for just how much like their real-life counterparts the models sound. I only know that each firmware has been an advancement in the overall sound and feel.
 
reclavea said:
Though I have not tried this, I wonder if V.10 users tried using the previous FW versions on the Global Menu and turning off MIMIC, then re-tweak accordingly around the new updated parameters taking special care to call up the proper cabs used before the update (not the producer mixed irs).

I'm thinking this should recall the "Idealized Modeled" amps and polished studio tones some say they prefer.
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I've tried turning all that stuff off.. now it seems that Cliff has modded some of the old IR's as well, not just the new ones..
 
shemihazazel said:
I still don't buy the argument that V10 is so close to real amps that it models even the lousy characteristics. I have owned one real amp in my entire life, and sold it shortly thereafter. It's been modelers then on out. I have no frame of reference for just how much like their real-life counterparts the models sound. I only know that each firmware has been an advancement in the overall sound and feel.
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I wouldn't say "lousy". But for example, amps with no negative feedback get flubby with high master volume settings. The V10 MIMIC'ed amps of the same ilk do the same. A lot of folks don't like that flubby tone. But you need some knowledge and skill to dial in the amp.

Richard
 
Gamedojo said:
You might want to roll back to FW7.0 if you'd still like to use axe-edit. I love FW7.0

Too bad about the lost presets. I always dump every preset before any change. They are too valuable to me at this point! :)

Good luck!
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Hi Gamedojo,

What version of AE are you using with FW7 and is it still available via download?

Thanks,
D
 
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