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tried the QSCk12 live and did NOT like it:urgent help needed

pisquano

Inspired
...cause I only have a week to return it!!
finally i tried the QSC K12 with my band and rehearsed for a good 6 hours all our set at gigging volume
now...I am using all patches with Plexi1 amp, and Red Wirez baskeweave cab sims (cap 6" shure sm57), no EQ.

I just.....do not like the sound I hear...as reported by many users, the Q12 sounds plasticky and not natural or warm in any way...it kills all the beauty of the ULTRA IMHO and the sound is "fake"....is like playing a POD :x
no EQ block was added to any preset. I tried rolling out higher freqs with the global EQ but still won't help.
I find especially challenging getting light crunch/clean sounds without going crazy with the insane amount of treble! no way I can dial a good sound, at least what I was used to consider one.

SO....I am considering leaving the FRFR route, returning the K12 (I only have a few days) and going for the Power amp + 2X12 cab solution, for portability.
Can anyone who is using the 2X12 setup advise what good power amp and cab I should get? I need the cab to be my main backline for small gigs so this setup needs to be reasonably powerful but not too much. I have a gig in 1 month and I would really like to get a good sound..

I also considered going the Atomic route: do you guys think it sound so much better than the Q12 to justify?
frankly I have been playing 20 yrs with guitar cab/combos, and I just don't feel at home with FRFR: they just don't sound good to me_must be I am not that good with cab sims, but since I got the FRFR I spend more time dialing sounds than playing.

the final question is: will a SS poweramp+guitar cab setup sound warmer than a FRFR? because if I return the QSCK12, and for for the poweramp+2X12 and it ends up sounding the same I will shoot myself in the foot!
 

Dpoirier

Forum Addict
Re: tried the QSCk12 live and did NOT like it:urgent help ne

Plasticky? Fake? Insane amount of treble?

Are you sure you have cab sims on? And that you do not use Output 2 and have an Fx Loop block *before* the cab block? It sounds to me as if your signal chain may not be right...

I am not familiar with the K12, but I was under the impression some folks on the forum were having good success with it... if your setup sounds *that* bad, it's worth double-checking your global cab sims are on and your patches don't bypas the cab block somehow.

Other than that, if the K12 doesn't meet your needs at all, I'd recommend returning it. You may want to give FRFR one more chance before going amp+cab (there are many benefits to FRFR). Maybe try the well-respected FBT Verve 12mA?
 

pisquano

Inspired
Re: tried the QSCk12 live and did NOT like it:urgent help ne

Dpoirier said:
Plasticky? Fake? Insane amount of treble?

Are you sure you have cab sims on? And that you do not use Output 2 and have an Fx Loop block *before* the cab block? It sounds to me as if your signal chain may not be right...

I am not familiar with the K12, but I was under the impression some folks on the forum were having good success with it... if your setup sounds *that* bad, it's worth double-checking your global cab sims are on and your patches don't bypas the cab block somehow.

Other than that, if the K12 doesn't meet your needs at all, I'd recommend returning it. You may want to give FRFR one more chance before going amp+cab (there are many benefits to FRFR). Maybe try the well-respected FBT Verve 12mA?
hi there. well, cab sims are on (using Red Wirez) and I am using output 1 (balanced) to the Q12. the sound is not so terrible per se, but I am so much more used to tube warmth, and I am wondering, even with all advantages of FRFR, if amp+cab is still warmer!
today I quickly switched to my old presets without cab sim, and plugged quickly into a Fender Hot Rod (tube amp) and it just sounds so much warmer... I guess my ears are more used to guitar cabs..
 

Dutch

Fractal Fanatic
Re: tried the QSCk12 live and did NOT like it:urgent help ne

Send it back. But don't give up on FRFR yet, try a Verve 12MA. Reports are it has a much rounder and more pleasing high end than the K12 or any other affordable monitor IIRC. It's still cheaper than a tube amp and 2x12.

FWIW, I always use a PEQ anyway. Block everything upwards of 6K to 10K depending on the preset. Blocking 10K and up doesn't influence the tone much of anything anymore and it shouldn't since guitar cabs don't produce much above 6-8K. But it's the same technique any producer uses to get the tone he wants, we just use it live. Whether we use it to get good tone on record or on stage doensn't make much difference to me.
BTW, Output EQ only attenuates at the most 12 dB, but doesn't block everything and it's a crude tool to say the least.
 

DeezDemos

New here
Re: tried the QSCk12 live and did NOT like it:urgent help ne

OP: I feel your pain......I demoed the K12's at GC with my Ultra & had the same experience as you! I blindly ordered a pair of the RCF 310a's & they are a totally different experience! I highly recommend them for an FRFR solution!
 

pisquano

Inspired
Re: tried the QSCk12 live and did NOT like it:urgent help ne

Dutch said:
Send it back. But don't give up on FRFR yet, try a Verve 12MA. Reports are it has a much rounder and more pleasing high end than the K12 or any other affordable monitor IIRC. It's still cheaper than a tube amp and 2x12.

FWIW, I always use a PEQ anyway. Block everything upwards of 6K to 10K depending on the preset. Blocking 10K and up doesn't influence the tone much of anything anymore and it shouldn't since guitar cabs don't produce much above 6-8K. But it's the same technique any producer uses to get the tone he wants, we just use it live. Whether we use it to get good tone on record or on stage doensn't make much difference to me.
BTW, Output EQ only attenuates at the most 12 dB, but doesn't block everything and it's a crude tool to say the least.
hi Dutch thanks but actually you can buy an ART sla1 and a Framus 2X12 for the equivalent of a Verve12MA.
in your opinion, if money wasn't the issue, which of the 2 "routes" gives a warmer sound? I miss the sound I had using combos and today I was petrified by how cold my sound was with the Q12....
 

pisquano

Inspired
Re: tried the QSCk12 live and did NOT like it:urgent help ne

Dutch said:
Send it back. But don't give up on FRFR yet, try a Verve 12MA. Reports are it has a much rounder and more pleasing high end than the K12 or any other affordable monitor IIRC. It's still cheaper than a tube amp and 2x12.

FWIW, I always use a PEQ anyway. Block everything upwards of 6K to 10K depending on the preset. Blocking 10K and up doesn't influence the tone much of anything anymore and it shouldn't since guitar cabs don't produce much above 6-8K. But it's the same technique any producer uses to get the tone he wants, we just use it live. Whether we use it to get good tone on record or on stage doensn't make much difference to me.
BTW, Output EQ only attenuates at the most 12 dB, but doesn't block everything and it's a crude tool to say the least.
but if every FRFR has quite a different sound what's the sense in moving away from a guitar cab? I am looking to have a good warm sound and a good representation of what will be heard on the PA and FOH, and if there is such a difference between different FRFR monitors I prefer to find a good sound on a CAB, then mic it correctly.
also, it's not very easy for me to try FRFR monitors, so I need to send them back to Germany which is a pain in the ass.
I know what sound I want to hear, and the Q12 just doesn't deliver
 

FlyingV

Inspired
Re: tried the QSCk12 live and did NOT like it:urgent help ne

Or is it better to get a RCF 312 A ??
 

North

Inspired
Re: tried the QSCk12 live and did NOT like it:urgent help ne

pisquano said:
Dutch said:
Send it back. But don't give up on FRFR yet, try a Verve 12MA. Reports are it has a much rounder and more pleasing high end than the K12 or any other affordable monitor IIRC. It's still cheaper than a tube amp and 2x12.

FWIW, I always use a PEQ anyway. Block everything upwards of 6K to 10K depending on the preset. Blocking 10K and up doesn't influence the tone much of anything anymore and it shouldn't since guitar cabs don't produce much above 6-8K. But it's the same technique any producer uses to get the tone he wants, we just use it live. Whether we use it to get good tone on record or on stage doensn't make much difference to me.
BTW, Output EQ only attenuates at the most 12 dB, but doesn't block everything and it's a crude tool to say the least.
but if every FRFR has quite a different sound what's the sense in moving away from a guitar cab? I am looking to have a good warm sound and a good representation of what will be heard on the PA and FOH, and if there is such a difference between different FRFR monitors I prefer to find a good sound on a CAB, then mic it correctly.
also, it's not very easy for me to try FRFR monitors, so I need to send them back to Germany which is a pain in the ass.
I know what sound I want to hear, and the Q12 just doesn't deliver

What do the same patch sound like through your FOH? Or, through what did you dial in your presets?
 

pisquano

Inspired
Re: tried the QSCk12 live and did NOT like it:urgent help ne

North said:
pisquano said:
Dutch said:
Send it back. But don't give up on FRFR yet, try a Verve 12MA. Reports are it has a much rounder and more pleasing high end than the K12 or any other affordable monitor IIRC. It's still cheaper than a tube amp and 2x12.

FWIW, I always use a PEQ anyway. Block everything upwards of 6K to 10K depending on the preset. Blocking 10K and up doesn't influence the tone much of anything anymore and it shouldn't since guitar cabs don't produce much above 6-8K. But it's the same technique any producer uses to get the tone he wants, we just use it live. Whether we use it to get good tone on record or on stage doensn't make much difference to me.
BTW, Output EQ only attenuates at the most 12 dB, but doesn't block everything and it's a crude tool to say the least.
but if every FRFR has quite a different sound what's the sense in moving away from a guitar cab? I am looking to have a good warm sound and a good representation of what will be heard on the PA and FOH, and if there is such a difference between different FRFR monitors I prefer to find a good sound on a CAB, then mic it correctly.
also, it's not very easy for me to try FRFR monitors, so I need to send them back to Germany which is a pain in the ass.
I know what sound I want to hear, and the Q12 just doesn't deliver

What do the same patch sound like through your FOH? Or, through what did you dial in your presets?
I just used the Q12, but my point is that FRFR are not consistent enough, what's then point in using them?
I am tempted to go for the power amp + cab route _ I would loose the flexibility of FRFR but go back to charted territory and to a tone I already know
 

Jay Mitchell

Fractal Fanatic
Re: tried the QSCk12 live and did NOT like it:urgent help ne

pisquano said:
but if every FRFR has quite a different sound what's the sense in moving away from a guitar cab?
This is easy: to be able to produce the sounds of many different cabs.

I am looking to have a good warm sound and a good representation of what will be heard on the PA and FOH,
Both of which are facilitated with a good FRFR monitor. As with all else, no setup is perfect. But an Axe-Fx/FRFR system, properly set up and deployed, will give you far more consistent - and better - results venue-to-venue than any amp/cab.

and if there is such a difference between different FRFR monitors I prefer to find a good sound on a CAB,
If you are content with the sound of only one cab - and if you can find a cab that gives you that sound - then that is a better solution for you than FRFR.

then mic it correctly.
There is no "correctly." No matter how you mic a cab, the sound that comes from FOH will not be the sound you hear from the cab. That's a fact. If you end up using a cab, a far more consistent and reliable solution would be to use an IR of that cab in a second signal chain and send that signal to FOH. That's what I'd do if I used a guitar cab.
 

BBN

Fractal Fanatic
Re: tried the QSCk12 live and did NOT like it:urgent help ne

Similar to your experience, I found the K12 very plasticy sounding. It sounded decent to my ears on the top end, but the mid/low meat was just not there.
The Verve 12ma to me, is totally different. It sounds like a guitar cab to me.
If you have the option to return the K12 and purchase either the Verve or even an Atomic (with a return policy), it's worth a shot. If you can buy both of these with a window of return....the only thing you have to lose is time.

I don't mean to muddy the waters....just want to share my experience moving to FRFR.
At first I found it hard to get the same tone as my Mesa cabs....then I got very close to the sound of my Mesa cabs....then I got to a point where I didn't care about getting the same tone as my Mesa, and I am absolutely loving my move to FRFR.
I've been tweeking my presets for a few months now, and I recently hooked up my Mesa cab just for an A/B and I was shocked at how much better I thought my Verve sounded. My high gain tones were way tight and thick...and my clean tones were beautiful. The Mesa cab didn't have the same flexibility in tone.

BUT to Jay's point - if you are really happy with a certain cab...then that may be the right choice for you.
I wasn't happy with my cab tone...I needed more versatility. And I found it.
 

Dramelot

Forum Addict
Re: tried the QSCk12 live and did NOT like it:urgent help ne

I wrote this back in July.
I guess my term plasticy is a good way to describe my feeling about FRFR.

I am keeping the K12's by the way they are great for guitar synths/vocals and backing tracks and if my Bose's crap out i have a backup.


6/12/10
Started with Ultra through 2 Bose L1's in Stereo. Firmware 6 something
Was extremely happy with clean Jazz (ala Metheny), but overdriven was plasticy? sounding.
Some kind of disconnect going on, hard to explain, could not nuance as well.
Then went with ultra into Marshall 9200 stereo into my open back EVM 212. Much better.
But didnt want to carry that around with the Bose's that i need for Guitar synths and on solo gigs backing tracks.
so went back to the bose's.
All the firmware updates helped alot. It got better every time. But still felt disconnect somehow on overdriven (ala EJ, Timmons, Trower).

Bought 2 QSC K12's. Same thing as Bose, while great and powerful, not any better than Bose IMHO. Except they are fairly light and small.

So recently went back to the EVM open back 212 with a solid state Peavey 800cs for the Ultra, still use the Bose for the synths and backing. When i need more, I setup the QSC's out front on Tripods for main mix.

I am the happiest I have ever been.
I have more immediacy and better connection due to the feel of open back stereo cab. No need to fuss with mics because the Ultra direct out just sounds great for Front of house. I seem to be able to get that groove thing happening now that I couldn't w/FR.
I'll probably use just the Bose for small quick gigs that i wouldnt be able to open up the 212's very loud anyway.

Of course the Ultra direct to recording is the best i have ever had.
 

Shaloha

Inspired
Re: tried the QSCk12 live and did NOT like it:urgent help ne

tried the k12...didn't like it...tried EVs, Yamahas, a bunch of stuff...I liked the RCF 312A, a db technologies floor monitor, and the Atomic Reactor powered cabinet...
 

Gasp100

Veteran
Re: tried the QSCk12 live and did NOT like it:urgent help ne

Damn... I was all set to try a QSC K10 or 12, I figured it was at least on par with the Verve 12ma but it sounds like that is NOT the case.
Do you think the fact that the QSC's are ALL plastic vs. the Fbt using some real wood in the cab could be the difference? I'm wondering when the QSC KW (w = wood I suppose) come out if they will translate better for guitarists?
Obviously the Atomic is made of wood, not sure about the RCF's.
 

BBN

Fractal Fanatic
Re: tried the QSCk12 live and did NOT like it:urgent help ne

The RCF's mentioned above are plastic.

As far as your QSC question....the older HPR wooden boxes have more of a guitar cab feel when compared to the plastic K12. I used the HPR over the K12 (I had both)

Verve 12ma beat them both (IMO). Wood box/guitar cab feel....FRFR clarity and flexibility.
I thought about waiting for the KW series to show up in a store near me....but they're actually more expensive than the Verve 12ma so I just went for that. Love the Verve Coax design too.
 

Tone Seeker

Forum Addict
Re: tried the QSCk12 live and did NOT like it:urgent help ne

pisquano. . . . here's a simple test, assuming you have the gear. Plug your AxeFX into a good set of studio monitors and create a new patch. If you like what you hear, a FRFR solution is worth pursuing.

I play through a set of Dynaudio BM5a monitors in my home studio and I get great tone. I've tried a few different portable FRFR solutions, including the K10, and I was not happy with any of them. The issue is fidelity, with non-linearity being a key problem. A bump in and around 2K, for example, is enough to add some very unpleasant bite to your tone. I attempted to compensate with AxeFX Output Equalization and things improved, but not enough to satisfy me.

IMHO, you have to jump up a level in price / performance to be fully satisfied with a portable FRFR solution. To quality that, I'm looking for reasonably close match to my studio monitors in a portable package so I can work with one set of patches, and also have my best shot at matching the FOH. If you search the Forum you'll find posts from people who tried higher end solutions ($2K+) and had an epiphany as to how good the AxeFX can really sound with a quality FRFR solution. That's why I suggest trying some quality studio monitors (not portable but accurate).

I put some thoughts about fidelity into a post about a year ago if you're interested. . . .

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=8493&p=82432&hilit=compensation#p82432

Terry.
 

shasha

Fractal Fanatic
Re: tried the QSCk12 live and did NOT like it:urgent help ne

Isn't FRFR supposed to be similar to monitors? I know that different monitors sound differently, but you should at least be able to dial in something decent with some tweaking.

And I've been kind of suspicious about the class D amp. Now it's been quite a while since I really delved into amps and stuff, but isn't class D kind of the bottom feeder of designs? I know that the QSC's are supposed to be great, but it just seems kind of a strange choice to me.
 

Dutch

Fractal Fanatic
Re: tried the QSCk12 live and did NOT like it:urgent help ne

+1 to just about all of the above.

Pisquano, I feel your pain too. That's why I said "send it back" while you still can. Try something else. And BTW, I did write the 12MA was cheaper than a TUBE amp and cab.

And who knows, several users tried FR and went back to guitar cabs because they just didn't get along.

I tried Shaloha's dB Technologies M12-4+ suggestion (on faith, not heard it, and I liked the form factor and the price) and I happen to like it, I like it better than an EV ZX3. I got lucky, I believe.
Yek had AtomicFRs, then after hearing mine got a dB M12-4+, but couldn't resist and tried the FBT 12MA and liked that just a hair more than the dB. And some like the K12 anyway.

But still I use the blocking EQs regularly.

And why use FRFR? because it's still a huge lot closer to FOH-tone than a cab and a mic, more control, more flexibility, more compact and no tube amp hassle. That not all FRFRs are created equal is a given and a sorry reminder that this is not a perfect world. I bring my own.

And Shasha, it's just that some monitors really do sound bad. Awful. There are some criminally awful monitors out there. And some FOH's sound awful too. But most of those things are beyond our control. Best we can do is input the the best tone we have for the tech to work with.
And some monitors are OK, but just have something that does not cooperate well with the Axe-FX. Real FRFR doesn not exist in monitorworld. Maybe really expensive.
Monitors are designed to go loud, be cheap and sound good at the same time, if you get two out of three you're lucky. (Trying to quote Jay Mitchell but it's to late here to go get the real quote)

And we're all putting things under microscopes here. For most, the guitar is the love of our lives.
 
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