Too many amps for meaningful differences?

D

Dr. Dipwad

Experienced
I'm guessing these questions -- or at least their underlying premise -- will produce a lot of reflexive pushback. But I'm asking because I'm hoping to provoke thoughtful and informative answers, and the folks here are usually pretty good about that.

So, here we go:

THE PREMISE:
In the Axe FX II (let alone in the III) there were already a lot of amps. Now we have more. And people are always asking for yet more.

Now, often, when I'm looking for a particular sound, and I audition a pair of amps and A/B between them to compare, it only takes a few notes in each before I'm no longer sure what the difference is between them, or which I like better.

This is especially the case when I have a pre-EQ and do some additional sculpting with post-EQ. I may have to make slightly different changes with each amp to arrive at the sound I'm after. But once I'm getting close, the two amps sound a lot alike. (Naturally enough, since I'm altering both in pursuit of the same sound.)

But this fact is suggestive. It suggests that maybe each amp has a range of sounds it can produce which greatly overlaps with similar amps in the amp library.

And if that's true, then there's a lot of redundancy. (Where "redundancy" means: More than one way to achieve the same sound...or at least, something so close to the same sound that the Proverbial Discerning Musician, somebody like Eric Johnson perhaps, can no longer form a confident opinion about whether they're different, or which one he's hearing in a blind test, or which one he likes best.) And as we add yet more amp models, we're also gradually increasing the redundancy.

QUESTION #1:
How close are we to the point where, for a certain category of sounds, adding another amp model within that category is pointless, because a little EQ or overdrive or a different cab would be sufficient to get exactly the same sound (or close enough that nobody can hear/feel the difference)?

QUESTION #2:
Okay, okay, I get it: The easy answer to the preceding question is gonna be: "No! Not Even Close! Moar Amps Forevurr!" And more thoughtful folks will answer, "Maybe someday we'll reach that threshold, but we're not there yet...certainly not until Cliff models a [insert favorite WISH amp here]."

Fine. In that case, which category of amps is getting closest to the saturation-point, the point of diminishing returns? Do we lack for pristine clean amps, but have an overabundance of tweedy amps? Do we lack for Dumble-ish amps, but have an overabundance of high-gains? Even if no category of amps is already over-full, which category is least in need of new members?
 
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I absolutely agree - everything in certain main categories:

Vox
Fender
Marshall
Mesa
High Gain

Have all started to sound the same to me. This is especially true with plugins. I went through my trove of Logic AU and standalone guitar amp Sims and they really are so good sounding at this point, it is literally impossible for me to say A is better than B. Of course, IR or cabinet sim or quality of an FX have a lot to do with the ultimate end product.

Fractal's models are amazing and have been from Day 1 (which was in 2008). Each iteration of firmware adds significant improvements to whatever Cliff and Co focus on (that new gate is "most impressive.". Wow!)

I'm not an electrical engineer but the topology of these amps are similar in many ways (thank you Leo Fender and Jim Marshall). Different values of caps, resistors, transformers, EQ placement,MV, PPI, tubes, wattage, and that Fletcher Munson demon of volume, have their effect on what eventually goes through a speaker or IR or FRFR to your ears and how much hearing loss you have.

It's all good.
 
Adinfinitum said:
I absolutely agree - everything in certain main categories:

Vox
Fender
Marshall
Mesa
High Gain

Have all started to sound the same to me. This is especially true with plugins. I went through my trove of Logic AU and standalone guitar amp Sims and they really are so good sounding at this point, it is literally impossible for me to say A is better than B. Of course, IR or cabinet sim or quality of an FX have a lot to do with the ultimate end product.

Fractal's models are amazing and have been from Day 1 (which was in 2008). Each iteration of firmware adds significant improvements to whatever Cliff and Co focus on (that new gate is "most impressive.". Wow!)

I'm not an electrical engineer but the topology of these amps are similar in many ways (thank you Leo Fender and Jim Marshall). Different values of caps, resistors, transformers, EQ placement,MV, PPI, tubes, wattage, and that Fletcher Munson demon of volume, have their effect on what eventually goes through a speaker or IR or FRFR to your ears and how much hearing loss you have.

It's all good.
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pretty much yep
you basically have the Fender Vox
Marshall , modern Hi gain

although there is exception to every rule 95% of amps built are based on the above topoligies
 
There’s a sweet spot between “not enough amps” and “so many that there’s a lot of redundancy”. Realistically, the lower boundary is a marketing issue. Will somebody who is looking for a particular amp find it in your modeler, or will they have to buy a competitor modeler who has it?

Judging by the amps that people request for the Helix, I’d guess the lower end of the range is around 200. The upper end of the range, where there isn’t much to be gained by adding more amps IMHO is somewhere around 300. I believe only Fractal has reached that 200-300 sweet spot (if you don’t count KPA as a modeler).
 
I think it's user dependent... For me, I personally don't give a rat's ass which amp model I am using at the end of the day - as long as that model gives me what I'm looking for.

BUT I write, record and play only original music and I have my own sound that I chase. Been doing that for 30+ years.

Some people want to play the gear the Satriani or Vai or Eddie or Guthrie or <insert name here> played, and nothing else will do... Even if that same (or extremely similar) sound could be achieved with another model.

Back when I had a Johnson JM150 modeling amp years ago, of the limited models they had I always used the "Johnson" models over the models of real amps. They were closest to what I wanted to hear.

I'm sure that Fractal could make a lot of people happy with only a handful of FAS models of "archetype" and "custom" amp models if only every guitar player followed the "use your ears" mantra... But I think they would also have a lot of potential customers that would never buy something like that.

Also, that kind of goes against the (at least in my mind) guiding force of the Fractal way, which is authentic modeling of real world amplifiers.

To answer question #1 from my own opinion (not that anything I've already written is not), I don't think we need another Marshall... Or Marshall variant. But I'm not a Marshall guy.
 
I think people don’t care how many other amps there are, they just want the one specific one they want, even if it’s basically identical to what’s already there. Just the nature of the beast, brand association, bias etc
 
I changed a preset from the 6160 block to the FAS 6160 this morning and was very happy with the change. If I knew more about EQ and the deep settings of the amps could I have achieved a similar change manually? Probably. But that would be difficult. I think having the amp list big makes life easier. Maybe catagories would help people sort but I'm not sure it's needed... yet.
 
Dr. Dipwad said:
I'm guessing these questions -- or at least their underlying premise -- will produce a lot of reflexive pushback. But I'm asking because I'm hoping to provoke thoughtful and informative answers, and the folks here are usually pretty good about that.

So, here we go:

THE PREMISE:
In the Axe FX II (let alone in the III) there were already a lot of amps. Now we have more. And people are always asking for yet more.

Now, often, when I'm looking for a particular sound, and I audition a pair of amps and A/B between them to compare, it only takes a few notes in each before I'm no longer sure what the difference is between them, or which I like better.

This is especially the case when I have a pre-EQ and do some additional sculpting with post-EQ. I may have to make slightly different changes with each amp to arrive at the sound I'm after. But once I'm getting close, the two amps sound a lot alike. (Naturally enough, since I'm altering both in pursuit of the same sound.)

But this fact is suggestive. It suggests that maybe each amp has a range of sounds it can produce which greatly overlaps with similar amps in the amp library.

And if that's true, then there's a lot of redundancy. (Where "redundancy" means: More than one way to achieve the same sound...or at least, something so close to the same sound that the Proverbial Discerning Musician, somebody like Eric Johnson perhaps, can no longer form a confident opinion about whether they're different, or which one he's hearing in a blind test, or which one he likes best.) And as we add yet more amp models, we're also gradually increasing the redundancy.

QUESTION #1:
How close are we to the point where, for a certain category of sounds, adding another amp model within that category is pointless, because a little EQ or overdrive or a different cab would be sufficient to get exactly the same sound (or close enough that nobody can hear/feel the difference)?

QUESTION #2:
Okay, okay, I get it: The easy answer to the preceding question is gonna be: "No! Not Even Close! Moar Amps Forevurr!" And more thoughtful folks will answer, "Maybe someday we'll reach that threshold, but we're not there yet...certainly not until Cliff models a [insert favorite WISH amp here]."

Fine. In that case, which category of amps is getting closest to the saturation-point, the point of diminishing returns? Do we lack for pristine clean amps, but have an overabundance of tweedy amps? Do we lack for Dumble-ish amps, but have an overabundance of high-gains? Even if no category of amps is already over-full, which category is least in need of new members?
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Agreed. Everyone has different requirements, but my personal opinion is that we've reached the tipping point you've alluded to.

More amps do not make the Axe-FX III any more useful for me, because Fractal has already made so many amazing amps that sound fantastic. You can find any flavor you need.

Improvements in usability, like the new Virtual Capo, or the Performance Page, or USB/MIDI flexibility, or Feedback Simulation are the new Holy Grail.
 
Personally I’m more than satisfied with the amps and cabs we currently have access to. It’s great (if not sometimes overwhelming) to try and find a amp that gives me the sound I hear in my head. But I can ALWAYS find it.

The new pitch update, gate, compressors, delays etc are more intriguing and exciting to me because they take that base amp and cab sound into different sonic and creative territory. This new VC is also very exciting to me as I play in a band that jumps around between standard and Eb flat tuning. So the Axe Fx III as a tool, for me, just took a giant step forward.

BC
 
I also agree with the Doctor on this one. I'm like unix-guy...I'm interested in the sound, not the name of the model that gets me there. Prior to owning my first Axe-Fx II, I hadn't even heard of many of the amps that were being modeled at the time. Now with the III, there are even more that I've not heard of (or knowingly heard). And I'd say 95% of the requests for a specific new amp are for models I've never heard about. When I create a new preset, I usually just randomly pick one of the models in the category that fits my need (Fender, Vox, Marshall, Mesa, etc.) and spend more time auditioning IRs than I do tweaking the amp. Even then, I can usually find the sound I'm after within a few minutes.

I'm more interested in additions/improvement to other functionality, like the new pitch block changes, FC improvements, or (hopefully) set/song list capability.
 
Interesting. I can tell every nuance with a different amplifier model. They are all very different. But, then again, I’m not playing metal every day either.,
 
Digital Man said:
Let’s take for instance a deluxe reverb to a twin reverb. Astronomical difference in the III.
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But how many different varieties of the Deluxe is needed ? Tweed, black and silver face ? Every single year of production ? Does every other amp based on the deluxe circuit also need to be included ?

where do you draw the line ?
 
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