Tone Match not working

[Bakerman]

Have you tried a longer avg. time and playing a bit more of the part? A few lead notes usually give stranger results than a few lower chords. Increasing the "smoothing" value can help too.

I'd try a few matches of different rhythm parts too. If most sound pretty good there may be nothing wrong with your process.

Screenshots and/or a video would still be good to see.

 

[Rick Ranum]

yes I have tried longer avg. time still playing lead notes with the same results. How is it that the cooper carter tutorial can play the same single notes as the original track and match it so perfectly and that was done 4 years ago? I will try again to post pictures and will try some chordal rhythm playing and see if there is any difference.

 

[Bakerman]

I did a match of that part and it seems pretty close.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/8z5jj4s6meuu02l/tcot-lead1.mp3?dl=0

USA Lead from latest factory banks, Drive-Amp-TMA. (I deleted the other blocks; bypassing should also work fine.) Drive block level reduced to 7. TMA at defaults (double-tap BYPASS on front panel in block edit page) except for ref. source = USB. I only used as much of the ref. clip as what I played there, stopping before the pinch harmonic. Delay added in DAW. Guitar was a JP13 but most bridge humbuckers should end up close.

I don't know what else to suggest at the moment. Were your curves looking somewhat like these, or very different?

 

[Moke]

yes I have tried longer avg. time still playing lead notes with the same results. How is it that the cooper carter tutorial can play the same single notes as the original track and match it so perfectly and that was done 4 years ago? I will try again to post pictures and will try some chordal rhythm playing and see if there is any difference.

Sounds to me like the 'Tone Match' block is not hearing either the 'source' or the 'local' signal? Something is definitely not setup right?

 

[Rick Ranum]

I did a match of that part and it seems pretty close.
I tried to post pictures again from my phone but it still pulls up an error message.It acts like is loading but then the error message comes up.
These pictures that your posted are the same as what I see on my axe but I still get the same funnel like sound. I tried using the drive block and bypassing it also.The tone match block is bypassed to when doing the tone match. Still get the same results
https://www.dropbox.com/s/8z5jj4s6meuu02l/tcot-lead1.mp3?dl=0

USA Lead from latest factory banks, Drive-Amp-TMA. (I deleted the other blocks; bypassing should also work fine.) Drive block level reduced to 7. TMA at defaults (double-tap BYPASS on front panel in block edit page) except for ref. source = USB. I only used as much of the ref. clip as what I played there, stopping before the pinch harmonic. Delay added in DAW. Guitar was a JP13 but most bridge humbuckers should end up close.

I don't know what else to suggest at the moment. Were your curves looking somewhat like these, or very different?

 

[Rick Ranum]

Sounds to me like the 'Tone Match' block is not hearing either the 'source' or the 'local' signal? Something is definitely not setup right?

Also Bakerman your results sounded perfect.

 

[Rick Ranum]

I did a match of that part and it seems pretty close.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/8z5jj4s6meuu02l/tcot-lead1.mp3?dl=0
Hello Bakerman, Your tonematch sounded great. Can you tell me exactly what your settings are? I am still struggling with this. How about settings in the global settings? anything different there? or just the I/O settings? My hookup is simple. Instrument plugged in the front of axe. Output 1 left and right cables going into my audio interface. Usb cable into the computer. Sonar setup using axe as playback device. I used a mono track of the Count of tuscany solo to capture in the reference side of the tonematch block. Using the Usa lead 13 patch. I know this is what you used also.
USA Lead from latest factory banks, Drive-Amp-TMA. (I deleted the other blocks; bypassing should also work fine.) Drive block level reduced to 7. TMA at defaults (double-tap BYPASS on front panel in block edit page) except for ref. source = USB. I only used as much of the ref. clip as what I played there, stopping before the pinch harmonic. Delay added in DAW. Guitar was a JP13 but most bridge humbuckers should end up close.

I don't know what else to suggest at the moment. Were your curves looking somewhat like these, or very different?

 

[Bakerman]

Can you tell me exactly what your settings are? I am still struggling with this. How about settings in the global settings? anything different there? or just the I/O settings?

Defaults should be fine for all global & I/O settings. Anything I might have set differently wouldn't affect tone matching.

Could you try another match with only Drive, Amp, Tone Match blocks in that order? Start with USA Lead preset and remove the other blocks. Take photos of the ref/local/match curves if possible. If you're still unable to upload at the forum, I can send a link for uploading to a dropbox folder. Or if you prefer to e-mail or use a free image host, that works.

Can you also verify that the amp block was engaged when capturing the local curve? Your clip sounds like what could happen if the amp was bypassed: large boosts at certain harmonics.

 

[Rick Ranum]

Here are the pictures. I got the same funnel like sound after trying again.

 

[Bakerman]

Can you get a picture of the curves on the front panel's "capture" page?

Did you try using a smaller portion of the clip, the same as what I played?

If you used the same length clip as posted on soundcloud, I think the G# that fades to the octave harmonic might be causing that narrow peak near the middle of the TM curve.

 

[Rick Ranum]

Forgot to include this one

 

[Tex Axe]

I thought this might help someone mentioned playing full bar chords from 12th fret down descending till you get the open e chord
then playing a folk style g chord and doing this from every pickup position making notes on time stamp so you know ok neck pickup here middle bridge and which guitar you use ect for your own reference.. You dont have to have the original source up too loud I was using a zoom h4n to mic the cab direct then setting my level about 23-28 tops so no distortion and of course no efx on..
Just amp and cab.

Now I recorded this way and when I went back and was using those on playback through studio monitors
4328 jbls I then just matched the amp using something similar in the axe fx FIRST BY EAR..

I was able to get that so close by ear that I never bothered with tone matching..
I just played the same type things along side play back I even recorded the axe fx amp
I dialed in by ear only and listened to play back and compared the two side by side and could not tell the difference.

When I got to that stage of the process I hit store enter enter on the front panel and saved the amp block.
I am going to be doing this again now that Q 6.2 is current..

re recording some amps I still own so this thread is helpful thanks for posting and you might just try doing things by ear
find an amp within the axe fx thats similar to what your trying to match if in case you ever find that amp is not included yet
you can add that to wish list and or just do research on what the amp is YOU are trying to TM.

I have a modified bassman its 50 watts but its not stock in anyway and both channels are special far better then say
a stock bassman...

So I tried a bassman at first to see if I could get close and I had to resort to another amp to find the same sound
that wound up being a Trainwreck which you might say thats nothing like a bassman at all WTF over ?

Id agree but thats why I say you might have to experiment and find an existing amp that sounds more
like what your after if the amp IS INCLUDED Double prizes for you if its not yet you gotta get in there Rocky
and find what does and then sculpt it start turning knobs till it does match up..

So best to close mic the original amp in question both straight on too the right or left of cone
center and at angle too out side edge of entire speaker where the sweetspots are.

When you find those record the boring power chords all the way down descending chop chop chop
so you let chord ring each time but down down down down too open e this captures the entire neck from those locations
covering the range. you get more then single notes but rather entire 6 note chords across all strings..

You might try your tone match the same way just record the original amp this way slow descending chords
bla bla bla bla then ring a folk g chord at 3rd fret to end each recording.

you might record each sound your guitar makes if 5 way switch same process from each switch setting
and make note in recording or say out loud between which setting the 5 way is so you know write the time stamp location down
and proceed..

So you can then just re amp that through your axe fx TM.
bla bla bla bla it gives the machine more to read and fuller range..

I say this only because someone else mentioned this too me and I tried it
this being said I got so close by ear finding an amp within the axe fx already and
tweaking that too ear that I never bothered TM the patch I just hit store enter enter..
Since I already worked my efx out also and saved those the same way and within the library naming them
as I went a good habit to get into thank me later, I was able to go back and if I needed a tube screamer or full drive or
what ever I could hit the library choose the exact one I already matched and drag that into the new patch I was building.

This is real handy as once you get your amp done and feel its right you have all your cake right there to eat with it..
Try this see if it helps..

You have to do it anyway too tone match if you just feel there is something still not quite exact
TONE MATCH THAT using THAT amp you found within and tweaked already saving in library..

It will shadow too that amp and match the frequencies even close perhaps the 10% missing..
I think you will nail it without ever having to use TONE MATCH.

I did and im just an old man.

a very elated old man
muhahahahha hahahahha

Stubborn self centered highly opinionated stuck in his ways thinks he hears better old fart
so before you get too that stage try what oldman tells you here..

Those steps are all things one has to do anyway too get a good TONE MATCH
the boring power chords you might have to sleep those off to get that out of your head
but it wont matter once you dial it in cause you wont stop playing.

That was my experience I played it all damn night long and all the next day
and everytime i turn the machine on knock wood knock wood
its right there its like the tubes never die...

hehehehe

 

[OwenTheBrit]

I am having the same issue. i am trying Cooper Carters exact set up with just the isolated Guitar track and it sounds like a have a heavy Flanger on it ....did you get it solved @Rick Ranum

 

[Rick Ranum]

I am having the same issue. i am trying Cooper Carters exact set up with just the isolated Guitar track and it sounds like a have a heavy Flanger on it ....did you get it solved @Rick Ranum

Kinda of sort of. I have had some help from tech support. It seems to work best when the reference sources is made up of chords from an isolated track and then I would record my guitar playing chords up and down the neck. I stlll have trouble getting a match when the isolated track is a lead solo such as John Petrucci or Steve Vai. There is still a weird sound like its in a funnel and thin.

 

[OwenTheBrit]

@Rick Ranum
So how come Cooper Carter can get it to work. I have exaclty the same isolated track and I follow the video and it sounds like all i did was turn on a heavy flanger. I have seen the video of "Cliff's Boogie" with the chords up and down the neck so i have tried that too to no avail.

 

[Bakerman]

Could either of you post a DI or amp block only (no tone match) recording of what you're playing for this part? Seeing how the local EQ curve takes shape over time might give some clues about what's happening. I'm wondering if something's happening on a specific note or two that causes the big notches/peaks in the TM.

 

[Danny Danzi]

I actually have been having a few issues myself and got the nod from admin Matt, the tone match guru, that it's working properly and it's us missing the mark. He told me that our signal is very important.

Check utility, and then status and see where your sounds are coming in. Adjusting mine to be right on those lines has helped a little. I think the biggest issue with TM is...the better your source file, the better your outcome.

I've had a few guys come to me that I just couldn't help. Lo fi sounds fail pretty bad. You tube sounds at low bit rates don't fair well either. A few good examples...

Dream Theater album that they included multi-tracks with....can't remember the name, but I copped the Rite of Passage tone so scary spot on, it was nuts.

Anything Van Halen taken from CD works incredible.

I've done really well with several 80's hero's as long as I've had a really good source file to take from. Dokken/Lynch, Vai, Nuno, Bratta, Randy Rhoads, Jake E...you get the idea.

Some, I've failed on. But just about always, I had source files that were not as good as the ones I did above. The quality of the source file seems to be the key. I just did a Ty Tabor tone the other day that rocked my world. He's not easy to cop, let me tell you.

Whatever the case, try for great source files. Even if it's someone you don't really want to cop, try to cop it just to see if the source file makes any difference.

Rick, the difference in mine compared to yours is, where you have 3.5...mine is set all the way up to peak. Next, we are not supposed to have the drive block turned on. I have everything off when I tone match other than the amp. So my drive block and even the tone match block are turned off.

From there, before I play any of the source/reference file into the axe fx, I turn the reference on and off (X start so it reads nothing in there to clear out anything I may have done before.) Then I play my source file on loop in my DAW making sure there are no pops or clicks and then I start X. I may let it play for 20 seconds or so.

From there, I press Y to clear out anything in local and then off/on. I then play the first chord of the song I'm copping, and turn on Y and play the section for about 15 seconds followed by a series of chromatic type chords that I saw Cliff doing in one of his early TM videos.

When I'm done, I then turn on my TM block and press ENTER on my panel screen in my Axe Fx. I never use the Axe Edit buttons for this because I don't seem to hear the tone change nor do I see "communicating" on the screen.

When I press enter on the axe front panel, I hear it change and see "communicating" in Axe Edit. So I've just always done it that way.

Not sure any of this will help, but it's worth a try to see if you fair any better. Good luck, man.

 

[Jason Scott]

What worked for me was bypassing the Tone Match block before capturing the local and reference samples. I engage the block again after I'm done with the capture and I'm ready to press the Match button. Worked like a charm.