To mono or to stereo?

[lqdsnddist]

Pretty sure sub just means “additional” and not specifically for sub woofers.

I actually wouldn’t be surprised if it’s not a dedicated output for a subwoofer, as it’s a guitar synth and does bass, synth bass etc effects

I’ve owned a few synths which had dedicated sub outputs, effectively applying a low pass filter on the main output so when you plug into the sub everything below say 80hz goes to the sub output and everything else’s to the mains, taking the lows out of the signal which can help reduce some muddiness. Of course most good Pa’s already have a selectable filter, and most subs have a high pass control etc, so you can just use a main full range output and do the same thing in most cases

 

[chris]

I actually wouldn’t be surprised if it’s not a dedicated output for a subwoofer, as it’s a guitar synth and does bass, synth bass etc effects

I’ve owned a few synths which had dedicated sub outputs, effectively applying a low pass filter on the main output so when you plug into the sub everything below say 80hz goes to the sub output and everything else’s to the mains, taking the lows out of the signal which can help reduce some muddiness. Of course most good Pa’s already have a selectable filter, and most subs have a high pass control etc, so you can just use a main full range output and do the same thing in most cases

Boss does this on a lot of their products. main outputs and sub outputs. it's just a 2nd output.

 

[Bushy]

I'm curious if the entire band uses in ear monitors instead of stage monitors, would the band still be running mono as well or mono only applies if the band were using stage monitors or "amps"? I'm assuming bass amp/cabs, guitar cab/amps, keyboard amps, are most likely mono except for the PA for the vocalist. Would that mean the vocalist have to stick with 1 piece of PA speaker to be mono, then the whole band all run in mono while going to the FOH?

In my experience gigging in Chicago and the tri-state area, ALL but one PA system were MONO. The Stereo system was at a small narrow venue in Wonder Lake. As I said, ALL of the rest were Mono. Did I run my Axe Fx Ultra mono? Uh no, but I did minimize stereo effects, except a clean chorus preset, which still sounded good in mono.



IMO, two speakers ALWAYS sounds better than one! whether in mono or stereo, and 4, as in a 412 cab; the speakers have a coupling effect and give you an extra 3dB (or is it 6? I can't remember) of output.

If you're only playing at home and recording (like me... for now ) by all means get two speakers and run stereo. Although while recording double tracked guitars; one panned left and one panned right sounds better. Sorry, I'm opening a can of worms here. If you gig a lot, you'll want to run mostly mono because unless you overpower the PA/FOH (like I used to ), the only one hearing your rig in stereo is you. This is my experience, your milage may vary.

I just noticed there's another page to this thread DOH!!! Hopefully I didn't repeat what's already been said.

 

[chris]

I'm curious if the entire band uses in ear monitors instead of stage monitors, would the band still be running mono as well or mono only applies if the band were using stage monitors or "amps"? I'm assuming bass amp/cabs, guitar cab/amps, keyboard amps, are most likely mono except for the PA for the vocalist. Would that mean the vocalist have to stick with 1 piece of PA speaker to be mono, then the whole band all run in mono while going to the FOH?

each instrument can send a mono signal and then you can pan those mono signals between the Left and Right Stereo speaker PA system or IEMs.

Stereo PA doesn't mean each instrument is sending a stereo signal. most input sources are mono - a singer's voice is a mono signal. a guitar is one guitar.

if an instrument uses effects to send a stereo signal, then think of it like that instrument is doing some of the panning work the PA/engineer would be doing.

 

[MKeditor]

This video by noted FOH engineer, Dave Rat provides fantastic Information in regards to mono and stereo.



Since learning this, I always use two different cabs in my signal path to avoid phase cancelation from the P.A. Running my guitar stereo also helps differentiate me in the mix from mono instruments that aren't panned. The Axe-FX makes this so easy.

 

[gigawatt]

@MKeditor Are you saying the places you play the PA is stereo?

 

[MKeditor]

@MKeditor Are you saying the places you play the PA is stereo?

Yes. The PA is stereo in almost every venue I play. There was one that I used to play that was stereo but the FOH engineer refused to pan anything except pre-show music. He saw the logic to pan CDs or mp3s but not the band. I'm glad i don't play there anymore.

 

[s0c9]

Yes. The PA is stereo in almost every venue I play. There was one that I used to play that was stereo but the FOH engineer refused to pan anything except pre-show music. He saw the logic to pan CDs or mp3s but not the band. I'm glad i don't play there anymore.

They are [likely] "stereo" in that they have a main L and R out on the console that goes to the speaker stacks on the left and right of the stage. Technically stereo.

I doubt the following will change the pro-stereo crowd, but...

Having worked BOTH sides of the stage for 20+ yrs, I can happily state that MOST live inputs are mono - as in single source. That includes ALL drums, bass, vocals, pedal steel, horns, strings and [usually] guitars. Guitars I say usually, because some amps are mic'd and some don't have amps and are DI (L+R or MONO) from the modeler/processor. Keys are about the only normal stereo input, but many of them use a single (mono) output when multiple sets of keys are in use.

Now, take all of those single source inputs and decide where do you put them in the "stereo" spectrum ??

I ask because in most PA's there's that wonderful triangle between FOH and the L and R speakers THAT is your stereo spectrum and folks sitting in that zone will get the full stereo effect. Those outside.. NOT so much !!

The further away from the center-line your listener, the more indistinct the sounds will become and pronounced effects such as ping-pong delay from guitar will have a negative effect on the listeners "experience".

To ensure that MOST folks in a venue get a similar experience, most instruments with dual (stereo) inputs are not panned far off center and bass, lead vocals and drums are usually centered. Backing vocals MAY be panned off-center to provide additional spatial experience, and two (or more) guitars may be panned, but I've never seen those inputs panned hard L/R by experienced FOH people.

A single L/R fed guitar I will pan a little off center (never hard L/R) to "fatten" the mix.
With multiple guitars (say 2) - if I get a stereo feed from one, and mono from the other, I may pan them off-center a little, but the stereo source will not have individual inputs panned L/R as BOTH would be panned L or R to offset the 2nd guitar and provide a spatial experience for the listener.
If there's 4 guitars (say 2 electric and 2 acoustic) and both electrics are L/R inputs.. I'll pan them both in the manner I just described.
In essence, "stereo" feeds from guitars for live performances are not that beneficial. It's lost on the audience.

My $0.02 from the FOH perspective. Again, this won't change the minds of those who insist that stereo is good live...
YMMV

 

[MKeditor]

I'm sure glad that movie theaters haven't adopted a mono philosophy. I wouldn't buy a ticket to a modern movie that only had a 1.1 sound system....even if I wasn't in the sweet spot

 

[Rex]

I'm sure glad that movie theaters haven't adopted a mono philosophy. I wouldn't buy a ticket to a modern movie that only had a 1.1 sound system....even if I wasn't in the sweet spot

Movie theaters have a couple of advantages when it comes to presenting stereo sound. These advantages give them tighter control of the soundstage.

1) They can prevent the audience from moving to the left or right of the stage.

2) They can place speakers in front of the audience, halfway back, all the way back, and directly behind and in front of the audience.

 

[gigawatt]

@s0c9 Well said, and a pleasure to meet you. "It's like you're right inside my noggin." (To quote Chris Walkin). My thoughts EXACTLY, hell, I couldn't have said that better myself . Bravo for an excellent explanation. So why are chorus pedals stereo?



I'll tell ya why, cuz they sound great thru headophones . There's an idea, give everyone in the audience some wireless Beats by Dr. Dre, then pan EVERYTHING hard left .

 

[gigawatt]

"Headophones" is a new thing, you'll be hearing about them soon. \m/ \m/

 

[Bushy]

But wouldn't anything panned center sound as if it's stereo since the signal isn't "left or right of center"? So pretty much "live music" is much like multi track recording; most will record in mono (except maybe the keyboards or synths, and I'm not sure why these instruments are the exception. Maybe because they are considered "stereo" instruments?). Should I think of "live music" tracking as if I'm multi tracking in the studio or "mixing" (I would think "live music" production is similar to "mixing" in the studio except it's just live).

Anyway, I just ordered a pair of Electro-Voice ZLX-12P Powered PA Speakers. I hope I made the right decision. They are manufacturer refurbished, paid $550 for the pair, free shipping.

I'm sure glad that movie theaters haven't adopted a mono philosophy. I wouldn't buy a ticket to a modern movie that only had a 1.1 sound system....even if I wasn't in the sweet spot

 

[chris]

But wouldn't anything panned center sound as if it's stereo since the signal isn't "left or right of center"?

Stereo is 2 separate signals. How can something panned center - a single signal - “sound stereo”?

 

[lqdsnddist]

If anyone gigs in a movie theatre be my guest to run stereo. Heck, run a proper surround sound mix since the venues acoustics and sound system will make it sound pretty awesome.


I’ve never been in a movie theatre though that had a standing area/dance floor, or pool tables in the back, or a L shaped floor plan with more focus given to the bar area than the stage which was stuffed into a free corner....

Kind of absurdly silly to compare a movie theatre to a typical bar/club/reception hall type venue

Again, if your playing some nice theaters (performing arts theaters, not the movie type) and dedicated concert halls etc, have at the stereo rig. More power to ya!

Then again, I don’t think anyone who’s touring 4000 seat concert halls is really having to about running their own sound, any more than they are doing their own load in/out, freight etc lol

 

[Bushy]

people can actually notice?

Stereo is 2 separate signals. How can something panned center - a single signal - “sound stereo”?

 

[Bushy]

I guess under 500 capacity venue, the band would have to haul their own FOH system, huh?

If anyone gigs in a movie theatre be my guest to run stereo. Heck, run a proper surround sound mix since the venues acoustics and sound system will make it sound pretty awesome.


I’ve never been in a movie theatre though that had a standing area/dance floor, or pool tables in the back, or a L shaped floor plan with more focus given to the bar area than the stage which was stuffed into a free corner....

Kind of absurdly silly to compare a movie theatre to a typical bar/club/reception hall type venue

Again, if your playing some nice theaters (performing arts theaters, not the movie type) and dedicated concert halls etc, have at the stereo rig. More power to ya!

Then again, I don’t think anyone who’s touring 4000 seat concert halls is really having to about running their own sound, any more than they are doing their own load in/out, freight etc lol

 

[gigawatt]

Kind of absurdly silly to compare a movie theatre to a typical bar/club/reception hall type venue

Boy ya know I just don't hear that enough. Bazinga!!

 

[Bushy]

I see, as far as "signal" talk goes, but the audience is listening to the music entirely in stereo (of course). I guess that's what I was getting at just didn't come out right. Even if the entire band is in mono, the PA or FOH putting out the sound is in stereo. I'm assuming that will be also true with the stage monitors or IEMs? So IEMs are for stage monitoring and the PA as the FOH, right?

each instrument can send a mono signal and then you can pan those mono signals between the Left and Right Stereo speaker PA system or IEMs.

Stereo PA doesn't mean each instrument is sending a stereo signal. most input sources are mono - a singer's voice is a mono signal. a guitar is one guitar.

if an instrument uses effects to send a stereo signal, then think of it like that instrument is doing some of the panning work the PA/engineer would be doing.

 

[lqdsnddist]

people can actually notice?

At Roger Waters Us and Them tour he was running some sweet quad sound and most folks were too high, too busy talking, out of their seats for the beer/pisser line, or playing with their phones to notice.

So no, audiences are unlikely to notice much of anything. I mean heck, would could probably plug our guitars into a smart phone amp worth $0.99 and most of the audience wouldn’t have a clue if it was a III, a real amp, or the cheapest modeler on the planet. They are more interested in the female bartenders cutoff shorts..... lol