Tips for making the amps sound more raw??

C

csassakb

Inspired
All

I love the Fractal, but my only gripe is that it tends to sound a bit too much like a recorded guitar tone.
This is where I give Kemper a slight edge when it comes to guitar tone.
I am looking for any tips on how I can get my amp models in the Fractal to sound a bit more like an amp that you are standing in front of, as opposed to a mic'd amp sound

FYI- I am running my AX8 through an EVH 5150iii head for power, and into a 2X12 cabinet

Someone told me I should get better IRs than what come stock

I would love your thoughts
 
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AX8 into power amp into cabinet = raw amp tone.

But you need to disable the power amp modeling in the AX8, by turning off Power Amp modeling in the Global menu, and by turning SAG off in the AMP block.

And IRs are irrelevant, because you're using a guitar cabinet.
 
yek said:
But you need to disable the power amp modeling in the AX8, by turning off Power Amp modeling in the Global menu, and by turning SAG off in the AMP block.
Click to expand...

Question: If you're running a solid state power amp, you'd leave the power amp modeling on, correct?
 
csassakb said:
All

I love the Fractal, but my only gripe is that it tends to sound a bit too much like a recorded guitar tone.
This is where I give Kemper a slight edge when it comes to guitar tone.
I am looking for any tips on how I can get my amp models in the Fractal to sound a bit more like an amp that you are standing in front of, as opposed to a mic'd amp sound

FYI- I am running my AX8 through an EVH 5150iii head for power, and into a 2X12 cabinet

Someone told me I should get better IRs than what come stock

I would love your thoughts
Click to expand...


If you aren't turning off your IR's through the 5150iii 2x12 cab, that explains a lot about why you aren't happy with what you're hearing.

The most pleasing tones I get from my AX8 are through a power amp and into my 212 guitar cab, for the very purposes you describe: a more real, in the room amp sound. My tone also blends better with my band at practice since the others aren't micing their real amps.

Something I've been working on with the full range speaker, mic'd tone with IR's, is narrowing the high/low cuts on the cab block to mimic real cabs as closely as possible. My tendency, in the beginning, was to kind of go for a 'wow' factor and dial in as many high and low frequencies as the amp model would produce. While this can be cool, in the long run, it doesn't sound as real to me. Honestly, it doesn't even sound like a real mic'd cab to me. It becomes it's own thing.

To each their own, but try this when you have the chance and are running your AX8 through FRFR or PA speakers. You may find that it sounds more "real" to you.
 
hbucker said:
If you aren't turning off your IR's through the 5150iii 2x12 cab, that explains a lot about why you aren't happy with what you're hearing.

The most pleasing tones I get from my AX8 are through a power amp and into my 212 guitar cab, for the very purposes you describe: a more real, in the room amp sound. My tone also blends better with my band at practice since the others aren't micing their real amps.

Something I've been working on with the full range speaker, mic'd tone with IR's, is narrowing the high/low cuts on the cab block to mimic real cabs as closely as possible. My tendency, in the beginning, was to kind of go for a 'wow' factor and dial in as many high and low frequencies as the amp model would produce. While this can be cool, in the long run, it doesn't sound as real to me. Honestly, it doesn't even sound like a real mic'd cab to me. It becomes it's own thing.

To each their own, but try this when you have the chance and are running your AX8 through FRFR or PA speakers. You may find that it sounds more "real" to you.
Click to expand...


Hi. I was turning off the cab simulator in the Fractal. Should I do something else?
 
csassakb said:
Hi. I was turning off the cab simulator in the Fractal. Should I do something else?
Click to expand...

As Yek suggested, since you're using a tube power amp, turning off the power amp sim on your amp block (Sag set to 0) would probably help. At a minimum, you'll hear a noticeable difference in the sound produced.
 
I also think it's a mistake to, in essence, flip back and forth between your real 5153 and the Fractal - noticing a difference and immediately deciding the Fractal isn't sounding right.

You didn't say this, but it's something I might do... ;)

Play around with it. I find I get really nice tones through a power amp and traditional 212 cab. So good, nobody would ever guess it wasn't right, or real, or whatever.

I do understand what you mean about a mic'd, PA tone vs a real, in the room tone. This has been a gripe for me re: modelers from the beginning. I even try to dial it out when I use IRs and a PA speaker, as much as I can.
 
hbucker said:
As Yek suggested, since you're using a tube power amp, turning off the power amp sim on your amp block (Sag set to 0) would probably help. At a minimum, you'll hear a noticeable difference in the sound produced.
Click to expand...

Hi, to be clear (sorry) if I am using a Friedman BE amp in the Fractal, are you saying I should turn that off, in addition to the cabinet simulator? If I did that, then it would only be effects through my EVH 5150.

Or are you saying the power amp simulator is something specific OTHER THAN the amp simulator, whether it be a Friedman, Marshall, or whatever amp
 
You can turn of the power amp simulation and only have the preamp simulation. There is a global option for this, or you can turn sag to zero in the individual amp block.
 
Smittefar said:
You can turn of the power amp simulation and only have the preamp simulation. There is a global option for this, or you can turn sag to zero in the individual amp block.
Click to expand...

Thank you. Sorry, but I am ignorant of some of this stuff. Correct me if I am wrong, but the preamp is the sound of whatever amp you want (Friedman, Marshall ENGL, etc) correct?

So is turning sag to zero the same effect as turning off power amp simulation?
 
You're bypassing the preamp in your 5150 and using it's power amp by plugging the ax8 into its fx loop. Each amp model on the ax8 (ie the Friedman BE that you select in the amp block) includes the preamp and Poweramp. So by leaving Poweramp modeling on you are reproducing the Friedman Poweramp but also running that through the real 5150 Poweramp, this can create some unpleasantness although some people do like it for certain combinations.

I recommend going into the global settings and turning off cab and Poweramp sims there when running though your amp/cab. It's easier and more foolproof when it comes to your presets that way. The other way to do it is to remove the cab block and then go to the advanced parameters in the amp block and turn Sag down to zero... This doesn't 100% eliminate the power section, but for the most part it makes it negligible (that's according to what I've read here).

As far as more raw tone... Be careful with the lows and highs, it's easy to over hype them. I use the angle severe model and typically my presence isn't much higher than 2 and my treble is right around 5... This still leaves me with a pretty bright tone and I've started turning down the presence on my engl Poweramp for certain applications.

I keep my presets simple... The only tone shaping is in the amp block and a drive block in front. I tried using a few eq's but me and the other guitarist decided it sounded way more natural with all of that disabled.

Try making a blank preset, disable the cab and Poweramp globally, select your amp model and leave all the settings at default... That should sound pretty natural even if the gain and tone aren't where you want them. From there, adjust the gain and bass middle treble, get closer to where you want. Then try with the depth and presence. You should be able to get 90% to the tone you want without messing with anything but the basic settings. Not a hard and fast rule but it's what I've found and it's how I screen amp models to see if I'd want to use them.

Keep at it, the tones are in there...
 
Disabling power amp modeling also pretty much breaks the vintage amps that don't have a master volume, since a lot of their sound comes from the power amp. Just something that you should keep in mind if you try to get that kind of tones. High gain stuff is different.

My best results with guitar cab are with a solid state PA amp. Tube amp changes the tone a lot, which usually isn't a good thing when the Axe already provides a complete tone.
 
If you are running a real cab make sure your cab block is disabled otherwise it is like running a cab into another cab. Unless it is a flat freq cab designed for modelers or a pa monitor. It will more than likely sound shrill if you don't.
 
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