Tips for filling out tones in a rock trio?

N

NewWorldMan

Member
Hi All,

I play in a casual cover band trio. (bass/drums/guitar). We play things like Tom Petty (Kings Highway, Mary Jane's Last Dance), Traveling Wilburys (Handle with Care), Jim Croce (Don't mess with Jim), Warren Zevon (Dirty Life and Times), Atlanta Rhythm Section (Spooky).

I use an FM3 and Redsound MF10 with a custom guitar that has mid-output humbuckers. I'm using Austin Buddy's Live Gold presets. @austinbuddy I'm looking for suggestions on filling out my guitar sound in the sparseness of a trio with these sorts of songs. I'm not concerned with guitar tones that match any recordings, rather just sounds that fill a room while still fitting the style. (Most songs are a lot pretty clean "strummy"parts.)

The presets in Live Gold that I've tried all sound great at home, but once I'm with the band my guitar sounds pretty thin unless I use a much more distortion heavy preset. But if I do that it doesn't fit the song. (When we do heavier things like Cinnamon Girl or ZZ Top there are Live Gold presets that are perfect with no tweaks.)

1. Can Live Gold users point me to presets that you've had success with on those sorts of "strummy" songs. (I'm wondering if I just don't have a good sense of the appropriate amount of gain I should be using.)
2. Are there general adjustments I should be adjusting to fill out for a trio? (reverb, delay, chorus, more? less?)

Thanks!
 
Ironically, in many band settings, that thinness is what lets you cut through and is desired.

There are Many options for you. Just some: you can try bringing up the lower mids (making sure you keep out of the vocal space) to fill out the guitar more. Alternately, you can add chorus or a slight detune, turn off the bright setting (if you're set to bright) in the amp block.

As for dirt, I love Austin Buddy (yes, I do). I would suggest you bring down the input trim in the amp block. That cleans things up really nicely and you can compensate with the boost if you need to.
 
It will help if you "play big". Add movement in otherwise held chords with subtle licks or cycling through inversions.

Learn other parts like keys and emulate them in your playing. If there are two guitars in the recording, merge the parts.

You can also use effects like delays to fill time/space.

I'm usually being very active in a three piece.
 
One other thing to consider. Your drummer and bass player need to adapt to playing in a three piece. They might be able to play just a bit busier to fill things up.

Listen to what bands like ZZ Top or Van Halen sound like versus a band with two guitars, keyboard, etc.
 
I stick to the non master volume amps and use the drive and comp pedals to get what I need, for the different songs - I too play same songs and use buddy’s live gold - I like the fender amps the best but have only done three gigs with the fractal setup so still learning.
 
AlexMania said:
Ironically, in many band settings, that thinness is what lets you cut through and is desired.

There are Many options for you. Just some: you can try bringing up the lower mids (making sure you keep out of the vocal space) to fill out the guitar more. Alternately, you can add chorus or a slight detune, turn off the bright setting (if you're set to bright) in the amp block.

As for dirt, I love Austin Buddy (yes, I do). I would suggest you bring down the input trim in the amp block. That cleans things up really nicely and you can compensate with the boost if you need to.
Click to expand...
Thanks, I'll give these a try. With regard to the detune, is there a specific way you go about it with regard to how much pitch variation and the mix level you use?
 
GaryRichie said:
One other thing to consider. Your drummer and bass player need to adapt to playing in a three piece. They might be able to play just a bit busier to fill things up.

Listen to what bands like ZZ Top or Van Halen sound like versus a band with two guitars, keyboard, etc.
Click to expand...
That's a good point - thanks. The bass player prefers songs that allow him to be a bit busier, so we should pay attention to that as we're choosing things.
 
Jamme1961 said:
I stick to the non master volume amps and use the drive and comp pedals to get what I need, for the different songs - I too play same songs and use buddy’s live gold - I like the fender amps the best but have only done three gigs with the fractal setup so still learning.
Click to expand...
I'll try some more Fender amp presets. Is there something particular about non master volume amps that leads you choose those?
 
One way of filling out clean tones like that is using a drive block with the mix turned down so it's a blend of the clean signal and the overdrive. I sometimes to this with the "blues od" in the drive block with the drive on 4 and the mix on 50%. Some delay and chorus can also help. Be careful that the sound doesn't end up muddy though.
 
NewWorldMan said:
Hi All,

I play in a casual cover band trio. (bass/drums/guitar). We play things like Tom Petty (Kings Highway, Mary Jane's Last Dance), Traveling Wilburys (Handle with Care), Jim Croce (Don't mess with Jim), Warren Zevon (Dirty Life and Times), Atlanta Rhythm Section (Spooky).

I use an FM3 and Redsound MF10 with a custom guitar that has mid-output humbuckers. I'm using Austin Buddy's Live Gold presets. @austinbuddy I'm looking for suggestions on filling out my guitar sound in the sparseness of a trio with these sorts of songs. I'm not concerned with guitar tones that match any recordings, rather just sounds that fill a room while still fitting the style. (Most songs are a lot pretty clean "strummy"parts.)

The presets in Live Gold that I've tried all sound great at home, but once I'm with the band my guitar sounds pretty thin unless I use a much more distortion heavy preset. But if I do that it doesn't fit the song. (When we do heavier things like Cinnamon Girl or ZZ Top there are Live Gold presets that are perfect with no tweaks.)

1. Can Live Gold users point me to presets that you've had success with on those sorts of "strummy" songs. (I'm wondering if I just don't have a good sense of the appropriate amount of gain I should be using.)
2. Are there general adjustments I should be adjusting to fill out for a trio? (reverb, delay, chorus, more? less?)

Thanks!
Click to expand...

Hi @NewWorldMan

My best advice for a trio you described where it sounds "thin" is that you need another MF10 so you can be in stereo. (If your MF10 is already powered, get the passive one next, and connect it with a speaker cable -- the MF10 powered one will power the second one).

Spread those apart by six feet or more on stage. Now use stereo effects and set your unit Outputs to stereo, not mono - it will sound full and better, promise.

Some people use dual delay tricks, like 100ms on one side and 200 ms on the other. Detune can work too. Robben Ford uses a slapjack delay of between 116ms and 168ms and the 2290 delay - his does it in mono on stage (can be stereo!) and it sounds good because what it is really doing is adding a "room like echo" to the original sound, so it's not so dry. So that's another trick

Just working in mono alone in a three piece can be limiting. The recipe for "Bigger Sound" in that trio format is really two speakers for guitar and stereo effects whether delay or reverb or detunes, set apart. Hope that helps?
 
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austinbuddy said:
Hi @NewWorldMan

My best advice for a trio you described where it sounds "thin" is that you need another MF10 so you can be in stereo. (If your MF10 is already powered, get the passive one next, and connect it with a speaker cable -- the MF10 powered one will power the second one).

Spread those apart by six feet or more on stage. Now use stereo effects and set your unit Outputs to stereo, not mono - it will sound full and better, promise.

Some people use dual delay tricks, like 100ms on one side and 200 ms on the other. Detune can work too. Robben Ford uses a slapjack delay of between 1235ms and 168ms and the 2290 delay - it does it in mono on stage but it sounds good because what it is really doing is adding a "room like echo" to the original sound, so it's not so dry. So that's another trick

Just working in mono alone in a three piece can be limiting. The recipe for "Bigger Sound" in that trip format is really two speaker and stereo effects whether delay or reverb or detunes, set apart. Hope that helps?
Click to expand...
1235 ms is a hell of a monster slapback. :)
 
NewWorldMan said:
I'll try some more Fender amp presets. Is there something particular about non master volume amps that leads you choose those?
Click to expand...
they sound thinner to me, more compressed and less open sounding - IMHO but again im new here just learning - I bought the Cooper Carter class that might help you a lot - I love it goes over everything - good luck
 
The songs you listed are all done by bands with 2 guitars or more, so all 3 band members need to get busier to fill in the space. And as others have said, you should be playing in stereo. And of course tasteful use of delay, verb, that sort of thing. Have fun!
 
Great tips up above. Here's my 2 cents:

1. It's been pointed out, but if you're performing songs typically done w/ two guitars, you'll need to get a little creative in your arrangement. Don't be afraid to "make it your own", obviously you've got to remain true to the song though. Point is you're already changing it up by using fewer guitars. One technique may be sparse use of guitar on the verse and bring it back to the front on the chorus.

2. I second the slapback delay comment above. It will help your sound be more "3D". Also make tasteful use of chorus, delay, reverb.

3. I don't think this has been mentioned, but dirty up the bass as needed. If you take a solo, that's a prime time for the bass to kick it in second gear and to help fill that midrange freq space that will be lacking, some dirt can help here. There isn't any place to hide in a power trio and the bass, which normally is just felt, will be more noticeable.

Good luck!
 
Another point that is particular to good there piece bands is dynamics control. Soft, loud, this, that, etc. The trick is as mentioned above, to engage the bass player and drummer as they have a massive part to play in laying down the groove of whatever song you're covering. Drummer hammering during the verses is harder to deal with in a three piece. No place to hide. In other words, it may not be so much you as you think.
 
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