Thoughts on a bank of basic presets

vinceh said:
I don't understand why a lot of people are resistant to the idea of, say, maybe a couple dozen of the presets of the 256 being basic tones. Some people are going to be more proficient with dialing in patches than others, and it has nothing to do with whether the person is a professional musician or not.

I have always had a POD, since 1.0., so I am fairly comfortable with the Axe-Fx and have found some of the presets useful. I must admit however, when it comes to the amp technician stuff in the advanced pages I am a little lost and never really know what the effect of changing one parameter has on another and whether I am getting the best base tone that the Axe-Fx is capable of.

Maybe we could win over more of the people who play guitar, love good tone, but don't necessarily have the background or inclination to be amp techs.

IMHO.

Someone on the forum here did a whole bank of those exactly that way. Amp/Cab only. Untweaked and at all default values, but it is a start.

If you buy a boutique amp, it doesn't come with presets. You have to learn the amp. You sit there, invest the time and work with the options and knobs it has.

The Axe-FX is the same thing, but it's all your pedals and your amps and your cabs and your post effects and your routing. There is NO WAY anyone can do a preset that fit YOU to a "T" other than YOU.

There are simply TOO MANY OPTIONS and things to consider.

It is just never going to be possible in a processor this powerful. Not to everyone's satisfaction anyway.

Once the new Axe-Xchange is up and rocking, that'll hopefully head off a lot of this sort of discussion in the future anyway. Hopefully.
 
The bottom line is: The user base CAN be partitioned into groups of users with similar rigs and similar tastes. For each of those coherent user groups it DOES make sense to create a bank with "basic tones". This also is part of the rationale behind my "Share your Banks" thread (->my signature). With growing size all tastes can get accomodated.

The "basic tones" from one group obviously won't make muchs sense for all those other groups of users with different rigs or different tastes in tone, but that isn't a reason to stay away from the idea completely.
 
www.Fo.com said:
The "basic tones" from one group obviously won't make muchs sense for all those other groups of users with different rigs or different tastes in tone, but that isn't a reason to stay away from the idea completely.
I think it's a great idea for any Axe-Fx users who are interested, but a hopeless expectation for factory presets.
 
Simple presets == good starting points. Doesn't mean the person won't or doesn't want to learn, in fact the idea as the OP stated is to actually help people learn.

When I bought my Carvin X100B tube half stack in 1989 the manual did in fact have some 'presets' listed there to get you started on getting different sounds. If I all of a sudden had a huge room full of amps (and in a sense we do with the AFX) some guidance would definitely help.

I don't think anyone is asking for a bunch of presets they can use with their AFX forever and never have to learn anything about it, yet that seems to be the premise that some people are arguing against...
 
Working on it Jay :) I also don't have experience with most of these amps so there is lots of trial and error for me as well.
Wish I could do this full time!
 
I'm not kidding. When I got my Mesa Boogie Mk IV I was lost. No idea how to properly dial it in. I went to http://www.grailtone.com/tone-settings/ ... tings.html and used one of the posted settings. I never changed them. Seriously. I played with the settings a tiny bit, but the first settings I put it to sounded so good there was no need to change them.
I don't have all the time in the world. I love the guitar. I've played for a while and I've owned many amps and many pieces of gear. I love getting good settings from people that have had the time to tweak their balls off. A good place to go to get settings is so important to many people who either don't have the time or the know-how to get good tones. I can't wait for the patch Axechange.
A set of basic amp tones at a starting point is a great idea. An explanation of why they are set the way they are is equally mandatory. Both are a great idea IMHO.
 
I'm finding a lot of interesting stuff in the stock presets and learning a lot from them BTW. It helps to get the levels matched on them, I'm not sure why but they seem to vary wildly in level. I would think relative level of the presets would stay the same even when the unit needs to be adjusted globally for different setups, am I wrong about that?

I know everyone already knows this but you can always turn all the extra effects off any preset ;)
 
There's a lot of helpful information in the release notes. Here's an example:

Added Power Amp Bias control (PWR TUBE BIAS in Advanced menu). This parameter can be used to fine-tune the virtual power tubes’ bias points. A value of zero corresponds to full Class B operation. A value of one corresponds to full Class A operation. Values in between are therefore Class AB. For traditional Class AB power amps (i.e. Marshall, Fender, etc.) a value of 0.35 is considered the “optimum” bias point. For traditional Class A amps, (which aren’t really true Class A, i.e. Vox, Matchless, etc.) a setting of 0.75 corresponds to the typical bias value these amps are run at. Lower values of bias increase the amount of crossover distortion, add “hair” to the sound and make the power amp more “explosive” since the transfer function slope increases with input level. Higher values of bias yield less distortion, “rounder” sound, more linear response and a more compressed feel. At high Master Volume settings the effect of bias may be subtle. As the Master Volume is turned down the audible effect is more pronounced. Increasing the Damping increases the linearity of the power amp and also serves to reduce the audible effect of the bias control.
 
The thing that always stands out to me is, especially in the beginning, these presets were made by Cliff, the man that built and knows the box better than anyone, with enormous motivation to make it sound as good and versatile as possible. Many presets are exaggerated, by his own admission, to make the effect stand out to show the capabilities. Then preset contributions were made by some of the best early Axe users and Cliff included those in further Bank B and C releases. So when we talk about 'newer & better & improved' who the heck is going to create those? We've already had the best of the best working on them.

Taking those exaggerated presets and backing off on the verb, echo, phaser, etc. renders some very nice underlying tones. Example: I had a 'go to' tone on my JMP-1 into G-Major for strat thick/clean w/verb. I took Subway Verb and backed off the Reverb and nailed it. Same exact tone even cleaner (noise floor) so why tweak any further or build from scratch?

After 3 decades of playing I am a studio only musician anymore therefore I am direct to board. I do not discount that when adding in the complexities of amplification and venue stresses that a whole new set of circumstances evolves. But I do wish the global 'these presets suck' or 'you have to create your own or your a beginner' rants would cease because frankly they are false and making me feel like I'm keeping the pictures that came with the new wallet. Plug, play & overkill here right out of the box and I can assure you while I am not a guitar master I'm also not green.

Scott is right in that this is a palette to paint your own picture. I recently started making some of my own presets from scratch and sure enough that is fun too and I was surprised to see how easy it was and how good my creations sounded. This box is scary.
 
As far as the guy with the Mark IV. I was the same way with my 2 channel Dual Rectifier. Back when those came out, the manual they came with was like a 3 or 4 page joke and the first sentence was something like "we didn't make a full manual because you really don't need it". I found that comment extremely inaccurate because Dual Rectifiers are quite tricky to dial in IMO......especially compared to other amps of the past (when the DRs came out). I don't think M/By did a full blown manual until late 90s or early 2000s. Anyway, I never could get a sound out of that amp that I liked. I never did sell the amp because.....well, I don't know.....it just sat with other gear I had laying around. Years later, I found out some of the "tricks" and ideas and combined those with what the real manual said.......and finally found a sound that I liked. I've only had my Axe a week or so, but I plugged in similar settings into it and it sounded decent. Yeah, I need to tweak, but I think it put me "in the ballpark".

And "in the ballpark" is what is being asked for here. For some reason, there seems to be a sort of animosity toward folks with this sort of request.....like they are being totally lazy and unrealistic in this request. Yes, pickups, guitars, output device of choice, playing styles, etc. will obviously have an affect on how a patch works out. But to completely write off this idea as rubbish seems extreme and unnecessary IMO.

For example, if somebody wants to play modern metal on the Energyball amp sim and they are using a bridge humbucker and playing through an FRFR system. I totally believe that it is realistic and possible for a baseline patch to be made that could be slightly tweaked and become useful for *a lot* of folks.
 
vinceh said:
I don't understand why a lot of people are resistant to the idea of, say, maybe a couple dozen of the presets of the 256 being basic tones. Some people are going to be more proficient with dialing in patches than others, and it has nothing to do with whether the person is a professional musician or not.

I have always had a POD, since 1.0., so I am fairly comfortable with the Axe-Fx and have found some of the presets useful. I must admit however, when it comes to the amp technician stuff in the advanced pages I am a little lost and never really know what the effect of changing one parameter has on another and whether I am getting the best base tone that the Axe-Fx is capable of.

Maybe we could win over more of the people who play guitar, love good tone, but don't necessarily have the background or inclination to be amp techs.

IMHO.


I don't think it's resistance really - (and I'm in the same boat here - I have never had access to a wide range of amps) - I've had my axe for almost 2 years now and truly the guitar and rest of the rig make all the difference. Settings that sounded great in someone's clip sounded completely different on MY guitars. I think yours is a great idea, but what we are hearing from folks here is a warning that, say Scott Peterson's "classic AC30" patch dialed in on his single coil koa guitars just won't be the same thing on your mahogany les paul. But I hear ya brother!
 
monolith2001br.jpg


I'm the one on the right.

:lol:
 
You know, I was in the Boy Scouts as a kid. I had this GREAT pocket knife. But I found over the years, that the cork screw was great, but I didn't often have wine, and the tooth pick was nice, but then that stuff that was on your teeth is now in your knife. That great screwdriver didn't give enough leverage, or wasn't small enough to do much good. BUT, if I needed a screwdriver, or a cork screw in a pinch, it was there.

The Axe to me is very similar. Granted the extra features on it are FAR better than the screwdriver and corkscrew ever were on my pocket knife. Just because the advanced parameters are there, doesn't mean you have to use them. If you can find a sound that you are happy with, consider yourself done. If you aren't happy, post your results here and ask us how we can tighten/loosen/de-fizz or whatever your tone, and I am sure you will get as many answers as there are posters.
 
I agree that I use almost none of the presets, in my daily use. But - let's take an opposite approach. What if the AFX had been dropped on your door, or you reveiwed it in a store setting, let's say, and there were NO presets on it; it was a blank slate, and you had to start from scratch figuring out how to program this complicated piece of gear, with no previous experience. I suspect most, if not all, of us, would have walked away from it after about 10-minutes of frustration, fiddling and tweaking. We would have believed it to be WAY too much trouble.
Now, fast forward, and we have the AFX with some basic presets on it. Hey, now we have a starting point. We have a reference to see how things linked; to see the possibilites of using different rows of chains, and interlinking them by interrupting them somewhere, and inserting a wet signal into a dry signal path midstream. Hmmmm - maybe we would have never thought of that, but after seeing a few basic patches, we might start exploring how that would work out. Maybe some of the basic patches have a bit of LFO tripping modulation at various frequencies that are beyond the "typical" players experience....hmmm, never thought of that one, either. Oh, wow, and here's one with an echo decay tripping another echo into a backward loop - never had two echo pedals that would link each other like that, so I never thought of that, either.... Oh, and check this out, I can use a user-designed IR cab....who would-a thunk!?!?!?!
All this is hypothetical summarizing, but it points out that there are ideas that may have come from the basic presets. There are selling points that undoubtedly came from some of the presets. There are inspirations that derived from some of the presets. No, I don't use many of the presets. I suspect that as time passes, and more of the players use the AFX, and it is more of a household word, that there will be a development of the preset banks that will be more usable to many different styles of players; for now, in my opinion, Cliff and Co. are on the right track to demonstrate some of the expanse of capabilities that are in the box, to plant a few seeds to germinate. If Frank Zappa picked up the box, and it was full of Keith Urban presets, he would have moved along; same thing for same thing for David Gilmour if it was full of Robert Johnson presets. But with a wide variety of "almost there" patchches, it at least spar your creative juices. Hey, and let's face it: the presets will be fine for many of the users, right out of the box. Some folks don't need that challenge to ad to thier list of frustrations. Some folks will take it like it is and go with it, and that's just fine.
Look at how often foks have been reminded to RTFM.... that should demonstrate how many don't and wouldn't have, discovered things if not led to the well, with a few patches. Humans are different, and some need it one way, and some need it others. Frankly, if I had recieved the AFX new with only amp patches that were tweaked, I would have been disappointed; now, the amp settings are one of my main tweak points.
 
This kind of topics appear regularly. Yet noone has yet published a bank with those tones. Figuring out which cab is supposed to go with which amp is a matter of googling. Everyone is relying on experienced people identifying the correct combinations. Nobody wants to do the work.

I get that. I made the amp row bank. all of the amps with just a cab and reverb. Just copying and clicking, all the same cab. Took me hours. I don't wish to go combining cabs because that would take days.
 
Dutch do you mind if I post that amp row 7.04 link again?
I went searching and it was hard to find.
One of the original topics was deleted.

7.04 Amp Row
 
Here is a link to a site I used when I first got my Standard,a year ago.I have only used a BF Twin my entire playing career.Had no reference as to settings or even sounds of many of the amps found in the Axe.I used this (FAS) site ,the presets,youtube,Axechange and the proguitar demo-cd site,among others,to get familiar with the amps.
If you've seen this site before pardon the redundancy.http://www.proguitar.de/AudioDemo/Compa ... eAmps.html
 
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