This is what I tell them.

[lqdsnddist]

I like low wattage class A tube amps. Manageable volume, get all the nice aspects of tube tone, and just one or two tubes to worry about.

My ToneKing Gremlin for example takes a 6l6 or kt66, or 5881 etc without rebiasing, I have a few kt66 on hand already, and with just one power tube it not breaking the bank like when you need to do a full retube on a Dual Recto or similar.

Tube amps will fill a little niche, just like tape machines still have their fans.

Might be rare to do full sessions to tape, just as not much use for a 100 watt heads, but still pretty fun to track something to an old reel to reel for “character” just as it’s always going to be fun to play through a little cranked Gibson 5 watt or a Princeton or tweed Champ or similar.

Can’t say I expect that overall playing experience will ever totally go away as it’s such a classic part of music and rock n roll history, After all, people still play classical music on traditional instruments right ? Not just all 100gig sample libraries even though the tech is there and those can sound great too, the real deal will still have its fans

 

[Kurt L]

This video still gives me tone envy - and I have an Axe-FX III and a killer Albert Lee! I can get close but no cigar.... (Mostly because you play better than I do!)

 

[BBN]

I agree with everything you said @Burgs
Always been intrigued by the latest gear coming out, and Fractal is just at the top of the game.

That being said Burgs, you'd sound killer if you were plugged into a POD Go. Some people always sound like 'them'. You're one of them.

 

[Paulzx]

I for one, was surprised to read what Burgs said about feeling the need to almost defend the use of modelers, because even though I have used tube amps, it never appealed to me to keep one, too big, too noisy. I jumped straight in on modelers years ago so to me, the only real choice was which modeler do you get, not if you choose a modeler over an amp.

I mean seriously, with all the options in these units, who could possibly ignore the sheer convenience of the thing? Maybe there was an argument to be had with the tone vs a real tube amp years ago but we're well past that time now. I suppose if you have an emotional attachment to your old tube amp maybe you're resisting going digital but I just don't understand any guitar player who's not desperate to get hold of one.

 

[Jesse]

The biggest risk to tube amps continuing as anything other than a niche product is that we're approaching a point where every player will experience a modeler first, so it will be the exact opposite of the situation Burgs is describing. These are people who will have never experienced anything other than an affordable yet still capable platform. It seems to me a lot easier to convince that person to upgrade to a higher end modeler than it does to move to a tube amp.

 

[Rex]

The biggest risk to tube amps continuing as anything other than a niche product is that we're approaching a point where every player will experience a modeler first, so it will be the exact opposite of the situation Burgs is describing. These are people who will have never experienced anything other than an affordable yet still capable platform. It seems to me a lot easier to convince that person to upgrade to a higher end modeler than it does to move to a tube amp.

Excellent point.

 

[Paulzx]

The biggest risk to tube amps continuing as anything other than a niche product is that we're approaching a point where every player will experience a modeler first, so it will be the exact opposite of the situation Burgs is describing. These are people who will have never experienced anything other than an affordable yet still capable platform. It seems to me a lot easier to convince that person to upgrade to a higher end modeler than it does to move to a tube amp.

In fact, the scenario you've just described there is effectively what will make real amps obsolete.

 

[Rick]

Preface: I am a hardcore Fractalite, been on board since 2011, have owned and gigged SEVEN different Fractal Audio System units and am on the waitlist for my eighth (FM9T), and will be keeping my Axe Fx IIIT too. On with the show…

I’m one of those guys that doesn’t see this whole thing as amps vs modelers. Both are good for making music. There are pros and cons to each. I’ve been on Fractal gear well over a decade now, hundreds and hundreds of paying gigs included. I also still own and play a bunch of amps and, totally disrespectful to this either/or concept, regularly use them (gasp!) together!

I would like to correct a few misguided ideas inferred here, though (not by Brett K). Amps are hardly niche items on pro stages. They are the norm. Modelers have gained significant ground, and you see them much more than when I started going “ampless” live, but modelers are still the niche item by comparison. It’s changing, and at some point in the future might be more modelers than amps, but it’s not even close now, including younger players. I have noticed that modelers are very popular in some very congested city environments, and are most prevalent there. If you’ve seen a bunch of them, this likely is your local scene.

Also, this whole “amps are dead” thing has been going since the 80s, and is just as inaccurate today as it was then. Everything from disco to keyboard synthesizers to (now) tube scarcity was supposed to usher them out, yet here they remain, along with the antiquated guitars they amplify. Keep in mind that a modeler, well, models. The very fact someone will pay to have a model of something justifies the original, and people will always gravitate towards the genuine article, even if the copy sounds just as good. It’s a controversial statement, but I’ll say it: a copy/model can’t be better than the original. The moment it changes the original, it becomes it’s own thing. That, by the way, is a good thing, and should be the goal. Make something new, something even better. I believe that is Cliff’s intention.

I don’t want to speak for Brett, who I respect a lot, but I don’t think that either of those points is his point. I believe his point is that modelers are a totally viable option, and in his opinion a superior one; an option that can even replace amps entirely. Everyone should give them a go! And I TOTALLY agree with that. I’ve put my money, and my professional opportunities, behind that belief.

I just feel compelled to confront the prejudicial, judgmental and self-centric statements that infer amp use or preference is a sign of boomerism, Luddite mentality, insecurity with technology, or some other deficiency that indicates a person choosing a modeler instead is somehow superior or enlightened. Virtually all of the guitar music you love and are inspired by (including today) was created on a tube amp. Virtually every popular model in the Axe Fx is emulating, to the best of its ability, the sound of a tube amp. Tube amps are awesome! Playing through a great tube amp is a feeling that you also need to experience! Fractal modelers are awesome! They deliver more tones in one box than anything on the planet. They are the best modelers in existence!

The world’s a big place. You don’t have to hate one to justify using the other. They work great in the same room. On the same guitar. At the same time.

Peace on Earth, and Merry Christmas!


PS: I have this same discussion, in reverse, with amp guys. The internet format preaches tolerance, but loves to hate. We can all do better together.

 

[Dave Merrill]

Preface: I am a hardcore Fractalite, been on board since 2011, have owned and gigged SEVEN different Fractal Audio System units and am on the waitlist for my eighth (FM9T), and will be keeping my Axe Fx IIIT too. On with the show…

I’m one of those guys that doesn’t see this whole thing as amps vs modelers. Both are good for making music. There are pros and cons to each. I’ve been on Fractal gear well over a decade now, hundreds and hundreds of paying gigs included. I also still own and play a bunch of amps and, totally disrespectful to this either/or concept, regularly use them (gasp!) together!

I would like to correct a few misguided ideas inferred here, though (not by Brett K). Amps are hardly niche items on pro stages. They are the norm. Modelers have gained significant ground, and you see them much more than when I started going “ampless” live, but modelers are still the niche item by comparison. It’s changing, and at some point in the future might be more modelers than amps, but it’s not even close now, including younger players. I have noticed that modelers are very popular in some very congested city environments, and are most prevalent there. If you’ve seen a bunch of them, this likely is your local scene.

Also, this whole “amps are dead” thing has been going since the 80s, and is just as inaccurate today as it was then. Everything from disco to keyboard synthesizers to (now) tube scarcity was supposed to usher them out, yet here they remain, along with the antiquated guitars they amplify. Keep in mind that a modeler, well, models. The very fact someone will pay to have a model of something justifies the original, and people will always gravitate towards the genuine article, even if the copy sounds just as good. It’s a controversial statement, but I’ll say it: a copy/model can’t be better than the original. The moment it changes the original, it becomes it’s own thing. That, by the way, is a good thing, and should be the goal. Make something new, something even better. I believe that is Cliff’s intention.

I don’t want to speak for Brett, who I respect a lot, but I don’t think that either of those points is his point. I believe his point is that modelers are a totally viable option, and in his opinion a superior one; an option that can even replace amps entirely. Everyone should give them a go! And I TOTALLY agree with that. I’ve put my money, and my professional opportunities, behind that belief.

I just feel compelled to confront the prejudicial, judgmental and self-centric statements that infer amp use or preference is a sign of boomerism, Luddite mentality, insecurity with technology, or some other deficiency that indicates a person choosing a modeler instead is somehow superior or enlightened. Virtually all of the guitar music you love and are inspired by (including today) was created on a tube amp. Virtually every popular model in the Axe Fx is emulating, to the best of its ability, the sound of a tube amp. Tube amps are awesome! Playing through a great tube amp is a feeling that you also need to experience! Fractal modelers are awesome! They deliver more tones in one box than anything on the planet. They are the best modelers in existence!

The world’s a big place. You don’t have to hate one to justify using the other. They work great in the same room. On the same guitar. At the same time.

Peace on Earth, and Merry Christmas!


PS: I have this same discussion, in reverse, with amp guys. The internet format preaches tolerance, but loves to hate. We can all do better together.

^^^ This x several bazillion.

 

[Greg Ferguson]

I’m one of those guys that doesn’t see this whole thing as amps vs modelers. Both are good for making music. There are pros and cons to each. I’ve been on Fractal gear well over a decade now, hundreds and hundreds of paying gigs included. I also still own and play a bunch of amps and, totally disrespectful to this either/or concept, regularly use them (gasp!) together!

I still have my Tone King Imperial and a Mesa Lonestar Special, and the Fractals, and grab whichever somewhat based on whim.

If we’re testing something during a beta cycle and it’s been stable I’ll grab the modeler and see if it acts up, figuring it will know that would be the worst time for it to act up. Sometimes I grab one because I’ve been reworking one of my presets and want to use it at stage volume for several hours, or even just because it’d be fun. The downside of the modeler is I’m back to dragging more gear around and set-up and tear-down times are longer, along with it takes more floor space between the modeler and the FRFR(s) and foot controllers.

If my back is bugging me I might grab the Tone King, but either of the tube amps have the advantage of being able to walk in, plug in its power and the guitar cord and turn it on, and I’m finished setting up. Then I get to worry about whether a tube might go.

I like them both. The modeler is so much more flexible and I can jump from amp rig to amp rig with ease, and they sound great - I was using the Blackface Deluxe model on my FM3 all night last week and it was a blast. The tube amps have their own thing and they do it perfectly. People enjoy sitting in on my gear because they like the sound I get; Some grumble because they are intimidated by the switches and lights of the modeler, but they would do the same if I brought my pedalboard also. I like the sound I get and it’s interesting seeing people start to warm up to the new technology, and eventually tubes will be a novelty and those who use them will be considered eccentric by the kids. My response will be “Fine. Get off my lawn.”

 

[Rick]

^^^ This x several bazillion.

Thanks, Dave! I’m sure many agree, but you know… needed to say it!

I still have my Tone King Imperial and a Mesa Lonestar Special, and the Fractals, and grab whichever somewhat based on whim.

If we’re testing something during a beta cycle and it’s been stable I’ll grab the modeler and see if it acts up, figuring it will know that would be the worst time for it to act up. Sometimes I grab one because I’ve been reworking one of my presets and want to use it at stage volume for several hours, or even just because it’d be fun. The downside of the modeler is I’m back to dragging more gear around and set-up and tear-down times are longer, along with it takes more floor space between the modeler and the FRFR(s) and foot controllers.

If my back is bugging me I might grab the Tone King, but either of the tube amps have the advantage of being able to walk in, plug in its power and the guitar cord and turn it on, and I’m finished setting up. Then I get to worry about whether a tube might go.

I like them both. The modeler is so much more flexible and I can jump from amp rig to amp rig with ease, and they sound great - I was using the Blackface Deluxe model on my FM3 all night last week and it was a blast. The tube amps have their own thing and they do it perfectly. People enjoy sitting in on my gear because they like the sound I get; Some grumble because they are intimidated by the switches and lights of the modeler, but they would do the same if I brought my pedalboard also. I like the sound I get and it’s interesting seeing people start to warm up to the new technology, and eventually tubes will be a novelty and those who use them will be considered eccentric by the kids. My response will be “Fine. Get off my lawn.”

So right, G-man. It’s funny, but the same conversations happen with digital drums vs acoustic, real piano (or horns, or strings, etc) vs keyboards. Man, there are valid uses and plenty of reason to have ALL of it available. I mean, seriously, acoustic guitars are still a huge market… how old is that tech?

 

[lauke-lux]

At some point there will be a subject for availability of tubes. Same for numerical photography, slowly but surely its getting more difficult to get the films but it will take at least another 10 years again I guess

 

[Dickie Fredericks]

I tell em...piss off. Get your own. This one is mine LOL

 

[bread]

I think there will always be room for both valve amps and modellers and we should be thankful for it. I've never thought in terms of using a modeller as a compromise or a trade off for tone, feel etc vs a traditional valve amp. I've used my Axe FX3 with no back line, with my IEMs in on stage and it sounds killer, where years ago I wouldn't think twice about 2 Mark V's thundering behind me. You just need to put the work in to get that tone you want just as you would with anything other amp or piece of gear. Guitarists can be impatient creators sometimes ....

At the end of the day if you have good ears you will always sound great. The gear you have is always secondary to the playing in my opinion. It just enhances and embellishes it.

 

[VENMusica]

Quite often I'm asked, mainly by middle-aged blokes, what my 'take' on Fractal Audio is. Do I like it? How does it compare to 'real' amps, etc? Sometimes it's almost like I have to defend myself for daring to use such technology. Traditionalists are affronted, afraid... but curious as well. Last night, following the upload of my resurrected Strat video and accompanying preset link to my Instagram page, I was again asked. This is my reply:

• • I'm nearly 60, Adam. I've been playing since 1972 and haven't really stopped for any length of time. I grew up with tube amps and pedals and used them through my early touring years in the late 80s and 90s. I got tired of dodgy tubes, bad cables, weight, hassle and confidence issues with hired backline when touring. Being a tech nerd, I was always interested in alternatives to the traditional amp. It doesn't worry me what the medium is as long as I can reliably get the sound in my head to the people. Fractal Audio was making waves. I wanted to try it. Around 2011 I got on the waiting list (there is still a waiting list) and finally had my first Axe-FX II around 2012/13. It was brilliant. I was hooked. I'm still hooked. Every day it inspires me to try something different. I tour with an FM9 and use an Axe-FX III for all things Youtube/video/demo. I will never look back. Trying one might be a challenge if you're in Australia - I don't know where you live. Stock is short because of a semi-conductor shortage. Your best bet is to hook up with someone who owns one and knows their way around it. There are brand alternatives, of course - Line 6, Kemper, Roland, Neural, HeadRush - they all have their charms. Fractal Audio is not built to a price point, however; it's built to be good. Their artist roster should attest for that. Go to their site, explore and work out where you might try and/or buy one. If you have to wait a bit, I can almost guarantee that wait will be worth it. There will be a learning curve and a period of familiarisation, but they will be worth it too. At least, they were to me. Still are. Cheers.
    11h
    2 likes
    Reply
  • 
    

    adammstevensonn​

    @brettkingman brilliant. Thanks mate. Am in Brissy. I Will try and link up with someone who has one. Your sound is always good (I remember buying an MI Audio crunch box years ago because of a review you did) but every you do with that fractal thing is beyond brilliant. Thanks so much for the background info.

well said

 

[marsonic]

I must have missed this thread the first time around. Very much enjoyed it and agree with a lot of the sentiments.

a copy/model can’t be better than the original.

That one line...I have mixed feelings about.

It depends on your life and your needs. But there's always going to be a compromise.

Specifically with amps and more so than that the amps that I tend to like...those compromises might involve earplugs, attenuators, modifications to add a master volume, iso cabs, putting the amp off stage, baffles, using a less peferred amp...or ditching all of that and using a modeler...or just letting my hearing go and pissing off basically everybody.

Everything requires compromises.

Maybe it'll change in the future.
Maybe I'll finally try a MV amp that doesn't piss me off (the Silver Jubilee I played was really close).
But, for me, for now...the compromises inherent to modelers are better than the compromises inherent to the "real" amps.

 

[Rick]

I must have missed this thread the first time around. Very much enjoyed it and agree with a lot of the sentiments.



That one line...I have mixed feelings about.

It depends on your life and your needs. But there's always going to be a compromise.

Specifically with amps and more so than that the amps that I tend to like...those compromises might involve earplugs, attenuators, modifications to add a master volume, iso cabs, putting the amp off stage, baffles, using a less peferred amp...or ditching all of that and using a modeler...or just letting my hearing go and pissing off basically everybody.

Everything requires compromises.

Maybe it'll change in the future.
Maybe I'll finally try a MV amp that doesn't piss me off (the Silver Jubilee I played was really close).
But, for me, for now...the compromises inherent to modelers are better than the compromises inherent to the "real" amps.

I use a modeler, have for a dozen years. I get the argument that the experience of using modelers has advantages, and I agree. My point was that a copy, no matter how good, is a copy. If it replaces the warts with perfection, it becomes something else. That might be something “better” in practice, but it ceases to accurately model the original.

Really all just words. We’re in agreement about what’s easier to use, and in that sense it’s an improvement on the original. But the originals are the originals, and there’s something special about being original. I leave that distinction to those who deserve it.

 

[marsonic]

I use a modeler, have for a dozen years. I get the argument that the experience of using modelers has advantages, and I agree. My point was that a copy, no matter how good, is a copy. If it replaces the warts with perfection, it becomes something else. That might be something “better” in practice, but it ceases to accurately model the original.

Really all just words. We’re in agreement about what’s easier to use, and in that sense it’s an improvement on the original. But the originals are the originals, and there’s something special about being original. I leave that distinction to those who deserve it.

Fair. I guess I missed that you were going more metaphysical with it.