Thinking of swapping my FM3 for an HX Stomp

[Postretro]

i'm sure I can get something close but look at it this way. What if I told you that the fractal was a bass modeler but with some tweaking you could get close to the guitar sound you want?

I do understand your thoughts here.

I don't know why there aren't more FAS solid state bass amp models. It seems that a SS bass amp would be much easier to model than a tube amp. And, a stable of modifiable SS bass amps would open the floodgates to bass players who really need great modeling options. I think it would make FAS modeling more profitable and more widely used.

From what I can see, a SS bass amp has a better behaved PSU - no crazy sag, weak PSU caps, or weird ripple. And while, the amplification is colored and not be purely linear, there is no grid clipping and no output transformer. A SS bass amp seems like it would be much easier and simpler to model. I also think the non-linear and toneful parts of a Bass amp could be made very customizable and very easily voiced. However, I can only guess about those things.

Meanwhile, I would be interested in putting together patches of specific tweaks for you to audition. But, only if that appeals to you. I can't create the sound you want. But, I might be able to point you to parameter changes that would help you get the tone you want.

I don't want to condescend or insult your intelligence. I simply have no idea what amp parameters you may have worked with already. I am also very curious about what you hear with each of these tweaks. You clearly have great ears. Your observations would be useful to me with my limited hearing.

Rather than turn off the power amp, I would propose to make the power amp harder, more dynamic, tighter and less distorted. I think the color of the power amp is not a problem, only the distortion.

These are mods that have already been done to the Jazz 120 power amp, in your Scene 3.
"Xfmer Drive" (Amp block, Power Amp page) is already been reduced to .01 (very clean, very little color)
"Negative Feedback" (Amp block, Power Amp page) is already been increased to 10 (very clean, very stiff, very little color)

If other modifications make your amp sound too stiff, you might want to revisit the "Negative Feedback." Dropping the value of NFB down from 10, a judicious amount, will add a little color back into the top end and make the top end sound less hard and less stiff. It will also allow the highs to distort a little easier. A small amount of distortion is okay. It is just good nonlinear, tone.

On the other hand, "Xfmr Drive" will introduce more low frequency distortion as the value is increased. While, it never hurts to recheck for the best value, on occasion, my guess is that, for bass -- especially jazz bass, the lowest "Xfmr Drive" value will always be best.

I don't know what exact difference in sound between your current Jazz 120 model and the Markbass is most meaningful to you. If you can describe what you feel is lacking, more specifically, I can suggest more targeted parameter tweaks that may be more specifically useful to you.

I am also very interested in hearing how reducing "Grid Clipping" (Amp block, Power Tubes page) from 30% to 0% worked for you, as a jazz bass player. That was one of two mods in scene 4 of the patch I sent you -- along with a second mod, the reduction of "Master Bias Excursion" (Amp block, Dynamics page) from 100% to 50%.

I hope this helps.

 

[jzucker]

I do understand your thoughts here.

I don't know why there aren't more FAS solid state bass amp models. It seems that a SS bass amp would be much easier to model than a tube amp. And, a stable of modifiable SS bass amps would open the floodgates to bass players who really need great modeling options. I think it would make FAS modeling more profitable and more widely used.

From what I can see, a SS bass amp has a better behaved PSU - no crazy sag, weak PSU caps, or weird ripple. And while, the amplification is colored and not be purely linear, there is no grid clipping and no output transformer. A SS bass amp seems like it would be much easier and simpler to model. I also think the non-linear and toneful parts of a Bass amp could be made very customizable and very easily voiced. However, I can only guess about those things.

Meanwhile, I would be interested in putting together patches of specific tweaks for you to audition. But, only if that appeals to you. I can't create the sound you want. But, I might be able to point you to parameter changes that would help you get the tone you want.

I don't want to condescend or insult your intelligence. I simply have no idea what amp parameters you may have worked with already. I am also very curious about what you hear with each of these tweaks. You clearly have great ears. Your observations would be useful to me with my limited hearing.

Rather than turn off the power amp, I would propose to make the power amp harder, more dynamic, tighter and less distorted. I think the color of the power amp is not a problem, only the distortion.

These are mods that have already been done to the Jazz 120 power amp, in your Scene 3.
"Xfmer Drive" (Amp block, Power Amp page) is already been reduced to .01 (very clean, very little color)
"Negative Feedback" (Amp block, Power Amp page) is already been increased to 10 (very clean, very stiff, very little color)

If other modifications make your amp sound too stiff, you might want to revisit the "Negative Feedback." Dropping the value of NFB down from 10, a judicious amount, will add a little color back into the top end and make the top end sound less hard and less stiff. It will also allow the highs to distort a little easier. A small amount of distortion is okay. It is just good nonlinear, tone.

On the other hand, "Xfmr Drive" will introduce more low frequency distortion as the value is increased. While, it never hurts to recheck for the best value, on occasion, my guess is that, for bass -- especially jazz bass, the lowest "Xfmr Drive" value will always be best.

I don't know what exact difference in sound between your current Jazz 120 model and the Markbass is most meaningful to you. If you can describe what you feel is lacking, more specifically, I can suggest more targeted parameter tweaks that may be more specifically useful to you.

I am also very interested in hearing how reducing "Grid Clipping" (Amp block, Power Tubes page) from 30% to 0% worked for you, as a jazz bass player. That was one of two mods in scene 4 of the patch I sent you -- along with a second mod, the reduction of "Master Bias Excursion" (Amp block, Dynamics page) from 100% to 50%.

I hope this helps.

Thanks, that's quite a mouthful. The truth is that while I'm a software engineer, I have spent zero time trying to understand the fractal amplifer architecture stream so I'm pretty ignorant when it comes to tweaking. I greatly appreciate your efforts. Honestly, I really like the preset you made and I have switched to it from my other one but i don't hear a radical difference and need to go back and forth between them all in more detail to appreciate all the nuances.

 

[Postretro]

Thanks, that's quite a mouthful. The truth is that while I'm a software engineer, I have spent zero time trying to understand the fractal amplifer architecture stream so I'm pretty ignorant when it comes to tweaking. I greatly appreciate your efforts. Honestly, I really like the preset you made and I have switched to it from my other one but i don't hear a radical difference and need to go back and forth between them all in more detail to appreciate all the nuances.

Well, I'm glad the first patch was somewhat useful. The first preset was really a blind effort based on general principals that would get closer to a SS bass amp. Then, I listen to Janek's tone and realized how much more tone tweaking was needed. Of course, it probably would have been easier to begin modifying with a SS style bass amp model.

Learning to use the deep parameters does take time. And, it helps to know what each parameters represents in a physical amp. It also helps, to know what tonal changes to listen for and to expect with each adjustment. Similar to wine-tasting, if you are tasting for a very specific flavor it is easier to tell if it is there or not. It is much harder to give a description of all of the flavors at once.

Understanding how to tune the deep parameters is worth the effort. Even if, or when, more bass models are added, the ability to tune the sound more precisely to one's ideal is a great option to have.

Matching a tone with amp parameters is a longer process -- similar to recreating a recipe by taste with only a few clues about the ingredients,
Each time I think I have gotten close, I hear more "new' differences.

The greatest long-term value of learning to use the deep amp parameters, is gaining the skill to customize your tone to what you want in more detail.

 

[jzucker]

And the HXStomp is a guitar modeler like the Fractal that can get some bass tones. It's the same thing.

not quite, it actually has some high end SS bass amps modeled. As I said, just having a single SS bass head would go a long way towards helping bassists. Why are we even having this conversation? Can you actually say it makes sense to have hundreds of guitar amps and not a single SS bass head? For that matter, why is there not a SS jazz guitar head?
I think the real answer is that jazz guitarists and bassists comprise about .01% of the fractal audience... But my feeling is that if they at least made some effort toward that audience, they would grow the overall user bass...

here's a list of the helix bass amps. Note they have the SS aguilar as well as jaco's beloved acoustic 360, GK, Mesa, Sunn and others.

https://helixhelp.com/models?categoryId=11&subCategoryId=2

 

[laxu]

The two things that I think Helix does better than Fractal are the drive models and bass amp models. More bass amps has been a request for years on Fractal but we still have just the miserable 4 distinct bass amps represented. Fractal would not be the unit I would recommend for someone who is primarily a bassist.

For me as a guitarist who occasionally thinks he's a bassist, the Fractal does well enough, I can get satisfying sounds out of it. I mostly use the Mesa bass amp model. Throw a compressor in front and pick a good bass cab model and I'm fine. On the Helix I prefer the Gallien-Kruger model.

As for the drive models, Helix manages to keep them more like the pedals modeled. Excluding a few exceptions, it's not "pick this unrelated model to replicate this and that mode of pedal X" or "do this to replicate what switch Y does on pedal X". On the Helix, that switch is there, named the same as it is on the real pedal. If you know the real pedal, you can work with the Helix model right away. Obviously this does not apply to the simple 1-3 knob gain/volume/tone pedals, Fractal does those just fine. Selection of pedal models on the Helix is more varied. There's more options for fuzz and bass-centric pedals, more modern pedals are a bit better represented.

I feel drive models are an area Fractal has neglected a bit in favor of just doing easy variations (same model with tweaks) like adding more Tube Screamer variants. Personally I don't give a damn about those, I just want one really good TS and that's plenty. There's always the advanced options to fine tune it. Fractal would not be my recommendation for someone wanting to replicate a pedal platform setup either. It's just easier to make more use of the huge selection of amp models over using drives in front of amp models IMO.

Honestly at the moment nobody really caters to bassists that much in the digital modeling world. It's a footnote compared to the guitar offerings. If I was building a bass centered rig I would probably be looking more towards separate pedals and pairing that with a decent bass head/cab or combo setup. Or maybe look at the yet to be released Darkglass Exponent 500 head which seems to be actually a full bass multifx system in an amp. I'm guessing it's based on NeuralDSP's stuff as the two companies are closely knit together.

 

[Ugly Bunny]

I think the fact that SS bass amps DON'T have tubes is what makes them difficult to model for FAS. The whole Amp Block infrastructure & topology seems be dependent upon all the features of a tube amp. They would probably have to start from the ground up on a lot of the parameters (or entire pages) to be able to include SS amps.

Personally, I'd like my old Peavey Rage 158 modeled.

Perhaps Cliff will have an epiphany (dang; just changed the sheets...) and/or get excited about SS modeling and create a whole slew of SS guitar and bass amp models or maybe even an entirely new/different Amp block if the topology called for it. I doubt SS amps would need half the parameters we currently have. I mean, when's the last time a new block was added.

But who knows? Maybe SS amps are more difficult to model because they're all surface-mounted PCBs with difficult to find/analyse schematics...

...But I'm still hoping for that Rage 158

 

[Deleted member 55227]

But who knows? Maybe SS amps are more difficult to model because they're all surface-mounted PCBs with difficult to find/analyse schematics...

Nope, this is not the reason......in the axe you can divide the concept of every amp into a simple block based concept - input buffer/filter -preamp - GEQ - poweramp. Even those amps that have no GEQ option - in the axefx they you can add stuff you can't in reality. BUT - for solid state amps - things work a bit differently than tube amps. First - the influence of the reative load of a speaker doesn't matter with a solid state power amp, since the damping factor is much higher and the power amplifier acts like a quasi voltage source. So therefor - all parameter to simulate the behavior of the power amp and the complex speaker load are not importannt to simulate a traditional SS power amp. But the 2nd issue is, that most modern bass amps with tubes don't have full tube preamps using the same parameter and toppology like traditional guitar tube amps will have..... the solution would be a dedicated bass amp block where you could imply all those little topology changes without the need to rework 290+ guitar amp models.

Postretro's tipps above are great and useful! Maybe you can recreate a solid state bass amp without using the amp block

The HX Stomp has an Aguilar, Acoustic 360, Mesa M9, Gallien Krueger GK800RB and a Pearce BC-1 SS bass amp, rest is roughly the same tube bass amps as the axe/fm3 also features......

One of the major plus of the HX units is that they feature the original parameters as on the modeled units. In the axefx we have a ton of advanced parameters to tweak but for a player who want to plug in and dial in a tone, these are way to advanced in many cases - and often difficult, since they would interact in a way most normal user will never understand (and never use them because of that).

Ive never heard of someone going from Fractal to HX Stomp, but yes there are a few differences. I actually dont know of any professional musicians using HX Stomp, maybe 1.

Ask Rett Shull, Johnatan Cordy, Adam Neely, Cory Wong, Zack Brock, Bill Kelliher, Jake Kiszka, Pete Thorn - they have the Stomp on their pedal boards....

EDIT: Okay...my other comment was too offensive against someone who made offensive comments against others, so they get on me instead of the one who actually spread the salt and pepper.
It's always a bit disrespectful the moment somebody as jzucker has avalid argument and come along with some very nice and profund playing to demonstrate his needs, someone else think he can turn him down just because he mentioned a 3rd party product. My dear moderators, answers should be helpful - and yes, I'm always the guy who speaks out against those who think they shouldn't. Sorry for being offensive against those who are being offensive instead of helpfull. I'll try to ignore them in the future.

 

[jzucker]

I think the fact that SS bass amps DON'T have tubes is what makes them difficult to model for FAS. The whole Amp Block infrastructure & topology seems be dependent upon all the features of a tube amp. They would probably have to start from the ground up on a lot of the parameters (or entire pages) to be able to include SS amps.

Personally, I'd like my old Peavey Rage 158 modeled.

Perhaps Cliff will have an epiphany (dang; just changed the sheets...) and/or get excited about SS modeling and create a whole slew of SS guitar and bass amp models or maybe even an entirely new/different Amp block if the topology called for it. I doubt SS amps would need half the parameters we currently have. I mean, when's the last time a new block was added.

But who knows? Maybe SS amps are more difficult to model because they're all surface-mounted PCBs with difficult to find/analyse schematics...

...But I'm still hoping for that Rage 158

they have a JC120 which is SS.

 

[odourboy]

I think the fact that SS bass amps DON'T have tubes is what makes them difficult to model for FAS. The whole Amp Block infrastructure & topology seems be dependent upon all the features of a tube amp. They would probably have to start from the ground up on a lot of the parameters (or entire pages) to be able to include SS amps.

I think this is a bunch of malarkey! I think FAS could easily model SS amps if they chose to. For example, all the transitory modeling in the drive blocks shows the current capabilities.

 

[FractalAudio]

One of the major plus of the HX units is that they feature the original parameters as on the modeled units.

Our products feature the original parameters as well when set to "Authentic".

 

[Andreas01]

As the admin shows up in this thread I would like to take the opurtunity to ask what the future plans are for bass amps. I searched the forum and see from time to time complains about the missing bass amps. But I don't find an official statement from fractal. I think such a statement could reduce the amount of threads to this topic and bring the discussion to a factual level (instead of guessing)

 

[FractalAudio]

As the admin shows up in this thread I would like to take the opurtunity to ask what the future plans are for bass amps. I searched the forum and see from time to time complains about the missing bass amps. But I don't find an official statement from fractal. I think such a statement could reduce the amount of threads to this topic and bring the discussion to a factual level (instead of guessing)

We are always improving our products. There is nothing preventing us from adding more bass amps other than time and engineering resources. Currently all resources are focused on higher priority tasks.

 

[jzucker]

Our products feature the original parameters as well when set to "Authentic".

any chance of getting some SS bass and guitar amps added?

 

[Andreas01]

Currently all resources are focused on higher priority tasks.

The complaints about to less bass amps seems to last for a long time. May you say something about the road map concerning more bass amps. (I would have been very surprised if there where any limmitation to model bass amps for you. The reason of not enough ressources I can understand very good)

 

[JTI]

Eww bass guitar.

 

[Ugly Bunny]

Can we get a Klon while you're in there tinkering, Cliff?

 

[jzucker]

Here is Janek Gwizdala using a Boss GT1000.
I have a Boss GT1000 CORE, I would trade for an FM3.

what does janek doing a sponsored endorsement for boss have to do with the current topic? He also did a demo of the darkglass element. Does that mean he's disqualified ?

 

[ruso]

Can we get a Klon while you're in there tinkering, Cliff?

And the BD-2. Please.

 

[stub]

I play quite a bit of bass. For a while I played an Eden Nemesis (2x10 combo w tweeter), later, through a smallish Ampeg, a couple GK amps, and most recently, a Hartke KB15. That last one is my favorite of the bunch, though the Nemesis was very nice sounding.

With the Hartke's solid-state design:
pros: clean, dynamic, responsive. Great power, very useful 3-band EQ.
cons: loud fan, Shape function (sweepable notch, fixed depth) is too deep a cut (would prefer like something like -8 or -10 dB).

For me, the KB15 is a great example of the value of a good SS amp. It's not a direct kind of sound, it's clean, rich and super-responsive.

I very much appreciate all the info from Postretro about how to make the amps more dynamic and get rid of squish.

 

[Michael R]

what does janek doing a sponsored endorsement for boss have to do with the current topic? He also did a demo of the darkglass element. Does that mean he's disqualified ?

I thought I read where you liked his tone and I found this video of him using a Boss GT1000. I thought perhaps that maybe that unit may be able to get this guy's tone that you like? Also, I said I have a GT1000 CORE and if you don't like your FM3, I would trade. Get it?