Thinking of swapping my FM3 for an HX Stomp

I love the FM3 but the lack of a SS bass amp head is a bit of a disappointment. I play mostly jazz ala janek gwizdala, matt garrison, tony grey, etc. Janek is using the hx stomp. The hxstomp has over 10 bass amps. The fractal has 2 and none of them work for me. I've been using a JC120 and the 8 band output EQ for a bass amp and it's not horrible but also not ideal.

Just wondering what others have found to be successful?

Here are a couple examples of what I'm doing





Absolutely LOVE your playing!
If I might give a suggestion... try to skip the amp altogether. A combination of a good compressor with EQ and one of your favorite IRs could do the trick.
Good luck on your quest. I'd love to know what your signal chain is on Thoughts of Yesterday. Best Sco-inspired tone!
 
@jzucker, I do understand your feelings. On the one hand I love the high-quality tone that Fractal provides. And, I am extremely happy with the huge number of modifications and tweaks that are possible -- some of which are only possible through modeling. But, there are still a few specific sounds and mods that, so far, I can only do in a physical amp. Overtones are tricky things.

Edit: after listening to Janek Gwizdala I realize I have gotten in over my head. But there is still something to show for the effort.
The patch has a few different changes in it now.

This should help with the Jazz 120 to SS sound, specifically.
There is an FM3 patch of the Jazz120 + Micro Boost at the bottom.
I listed most of the changes below.

I would use the Ideal page to set the Tone Controls. Presence and Depth should work for you now.
And, you have a Master Volume if needed or desired.


AMP BLOCK

Preamp page:

Set "Low Cut Frequency" to "20 Hz"
Set "High Cut Frequency" to "10k Hz" (anywhere you want really)
Set "Tube Hardness" to "10.00"
Set "Preamp Sag" to "OFF"
Set "Preamp Bias Excursion" to "0.0%"-"10%"
Set "Tone Stack Frequency" to ~280 Hz or lower

Try Setting "Tone Stack Location" to "Pre-Mid" instead of "Post"


Power Amp page:

Set "Negative Feedback" to "10.00"
Set "Presence Frequency" to "0.100"
Set "Depth Frequency" to "50 Hz"

Feel free to set the above to your taste.
But, these settings should make your Presence and Depth controls usable for Bass.

Set "PI Bias Excursion" to "0.00%"


Power Tubes + CF page:

Set "Power Tube Type" to "6L6Gc Svet" ( try 6550, KT88, KT77, KT66, and others)
Set "Grid Bias" to "0.999"
Set "Tube Hardness" to "10.00"
Set "Bias Excursion" to "0.00%"
Set "Excursion Time" to "0.50%"
Set "Excursion Recovery" to "0.50%"
Set "Grid Clipping" to "0.0%"


Power Supply page:

Set "Supply Sag" to "0.00"
Set "Power Type" to "DC"
Set "Variac" to "150.0%"
Set "B+ Time Constant" to "1.50"
Set "Screen Frequency" to "1.00"
Set "Screen Q" to "1.000" or "10.000" --- this really shapes the character -- try sweeping this one.


Speaker page:

(Low Freq, LF Q, and LF Reso are worth playing around with -- especially for Bass)

Set "Speaker Compliance" to "70.0%"
Set "Speaker Compression" to "0.00"
Set "Speaker Time Const" to "100.00 ms" (lowest setting)

Set "Speaker Resonance" to "6.0%"


Input EQ page;

Set "Low Cut" to "10.0" Hz


Try the following after the amp has been tightened up.

Ideal page:

Set "Drive" to "3.0" (adjust it for color)


I attached my FM3 patch of these extreme settings..
Once again, I'm not a Bass player, not an Solid-State guy, and not a Jazz guy.
I constructed this patch with a guitar and a Pitch block set to "Classic Whammy," "down 2 octaves."
-- and a cheap set of headphones.
But, I hope this has some value for you.

This should give you an idea of what is possible.
The settings should be changed to taste.
This is just a starting point. But, it should get you closer.

I added a micro boost for a clean shunt around the amp -- but with just a little tube color.
Drive - 1.0 (adjust for color, use output level if you need more volume)
Tone - 5.0
Bass - -10.00
Mid - 2
Mid Frequency - 230 Hz
High Cut - 10k
Clip Type - HV Tube
Bias - 0,
slew rate - 10
Graphic EQ - OFF

You can use the mixer to listen to the Jazz 120 or Micro Boost together or separately.

Any insights, corrections, fixes, updates, modifications, and thoughts are warmly welcomed.
 

Attachments

  • Jazz 120 Bass [postretro] 1.4.syx
    24.1 KB · Views: 8
Last edited:
@jzucker, I do understand your feelings. On the one hand I love the high-quality tone that Fractal provides. And, I am extremely happy with the huge number of modifications and tweaks that are possible -- some of which are only possible through modeling. But, there are still a few specific sounds and mods that, so far, I can only do in a physical amp. Overtones are tricky things.

Edit: after listening to Janek Gwizdala I realize I have gotten in over my head. But there is still something to show for the effort.
The patch has a few different changes in it now.

This should help with the Jazz 120 to SS sound, specifically.
There is an FM3 patch of the Jazz120 + Micro Boost at the bottom.
I listed most of the changes below.

I would use the Ideal page to set the Tone Controls. Presence and Depth should work for you now.
And, you have a Master Volume if needed or desired.


AMP BLOCK

Preamp page:

Set "Low Cut Frequency" to "20 Hz"
Set "High Cut Frequency" to "10k Hz" (anywhere you want really)
Set "Tube Hardness" to "10.00"
Set "Preamp Sag" to "OFF"
Set "Preamp Bias Excursion" to "0.0%"-"10%"
Set "Tone Stack Frequency" to ~280 Hz or lower

Try Setting "Tone Stack Location" to "Pre-Mid" instead of "Post"


Power Amp page:

Set "Negative Feedback" to "10.00"
Set "Presence Frequency" to "0.100"
Set "Depth Frequency" to "50 Hz"

Feel free to set the above to your taste.
But, these settings should make your Presence and Depth controls usable for Bass.

Set "PI Bias Excursion" to "0.00%"


Power Tubes + CF page:

Set "Power Tube Type" to "6L6Gc Svet" ( try 6550, KT88, KT77, KT66, and others)
Set "Grid Bias" to "0.999"
Set "Tube Hardness" to "10.00"
Set "Bias Excursion" to "0.00%"
Set "Excursion Time" to "0.50%"
Set "Excursion Recovery" to "0.50%"
Set "Grid Clipping" to "0.0%"


Power Supply page:

Set "Supply Sag" to "0.00"
Set "Power Type" to "DC"
Set "Variac" to "150.0%"
Set "B+ Time Constant" to "1.50"
Set "Screen Frequency" to "1.00"
Set "Screen Q" to "1.000" or "10.000" --- this really shapes the character -- try sweeping this one.


Speaker page:

(Low Freq, LF Q, and LF Reso are worth playing around with -- especially for Bass)

Set "Speaker Compliance" to "70.0%"
Set "Speaker Compression" to "0.00"
Set "Speaker Time Const" to "100.00 ms" (lowest setting)

Set "Speaker Resonance" to "6.0%"


Input EQ page;

Set "Low Cut" to "10.0" Hz


Try the following after the amp has been tightened up.

Ideal page:

Set "Drive" to "3.0" (adjust it for color)


I attached my FM3 patch of these extreme settings..
Once again, I'm not a Bass player, not an Solid-State guy, and not a Jazz guy.
I constructed this patch with a guitar and a Pitch block set to "Classic Whammy," "down 2 octaves."
-- and a cheap set of headphones.
But, I hope this has some value for you.

This should give you an idea of what is possible.
The settings should be changed to taste.
This is just a starting point. But, it should get you closer.

I added a micro boost for a clean shunt around the amp -- but with just a little tube color.
Drive - 1.0 (adjust for color, use output level if you need more volume)
Tone - 5.0
Bass - -10.00
Mid - 2
Mid Frequency - 230 Hz
High Cut - 10k
Clip Type - HV Tube
Bias - 0,
slew rate - 10
Graphic EQ - OFF

You can use the mixer to listen to the Jazz 120 or Micro Boost together or separately.

Any insights, corrections, fixes, updates, modifications, and thoughts are warmly welcomed.
thanks. Trying right now.
 
@jzucker, I do understand your feelings. On the one hand I love the high-quality tone that Fractal provides. And, I am extremely happy with the huge number of modifications and tweaks that are possible -- some of which are only possible through modeling. But, there are still a few specific sounds and mods that, so far, I can only do in a physical amp. Overtones are tricky things.

Edit: after listening to Janek Gwizdala I realize I have gotten in over my head. But there is still something to show for the effort.
The patch has a few different changes in it now.

This should help with the Jazz 120 to SS sound, specifically.
There is an FM3 patch of the Jazz120 + Micro Boost at the bottom.
I listed most of the changes below.

I would use the Ideal page to set the Tone Controls. Presence and Depth should work for you now.
And, you have a Master Volume if needed or desired.


AMP BLOCK

Preamp page:

Set "Low Cut Frequency" to "20 Hz"
Set "High Cut Frequency" to "10k Hz" (anywhere you want really)
Set "Tube Hardness" to "10.00"
Set "Preamp Sag" to "OFF"
Set "Preamp Bias Excursion" to "0.0%"-"10%"
Set "Tone Stack Frequency" to ~280 Hz or lower

Try Setting "Tone Stack Location" to "Pre-Mid" instead of "Post"


Power Amp page:

Set "Negative Feedback" to "10.00"
Set "Presence Frequency" to "0.100"
Set "Depth Frequency" to "50 Hz"

Feel free to set the above to your taste.
But, these settings should make your Presence and Depth controls usable for Bass.

Set "PI Bias Excursion" to "0.00%"


Power Tubes + CF page:

Set "Power Tube Type" to "6L6Gc Svet" ( try 6550, KT88, KT77, KT66, and others)
Set "Grid Bias" to "0.999"
Set "Tube Hardness" to "10.00"
Set "Bias Excursion" to "0.00%"
Set "Excursion Time" to "0.50%"
Set "Excursion Recovery" to "0.50%"
Set "Grid Clipping" to "0.0%"


Power Supply page:

Set "Supply Sag" to "0.00"
Set "Power Type" to "DC"
Set "Variac" to "150.0%"
Set "B+ Time Constant" to "1.50"
Set "Screen Frequency" to "1.00"
Set "Screen Q" to "1.000" or "10.000" --- this really shapes the character -- try sweeping this one.


Speaker page:

(Low Freq, LF Q, and LF Reso are worth playing around with -- especially for Bass)

Set "Speaker Compliance" to "70.0%"
Set "Speaker Compression" to "0.00"
Set "Speaker Time Const" to "100.00 ms" (lowest setting)

Set "Speaker Resonance" to "6.0%"


Input EQ page;

Set "Low Cut" to "10.0" Hz


Try the following after the amp has been tightened up.

Ideal page:

Set "Drive" to "3.0" (adjust it for color)


I attached my FM3 patch of these extreme settings..
Once again, I'm not a Bass player, not an Solid-State guy, and not a Jazz guy.
I constructed this patch with a guitar and a Pitch block set to "Classic Whammy," "down 2 octaves."
-- and a cheap set of headphones.
But, I hope this has some value for you.

This should give you an idea of what is possible.
The settings should be changed to taste.
This is just a starting point. But, it should get you closer.

I added a micro boost for a clean shunt around the amp -- but with just a little tube color.
Drive - 1.0 (adjust for color, use output level if you need more volume)
Tone - 5.0
Bass - -10.00
Mid - 2
Mid Frequency - 230 Hz
High Cut - 10k
Clip Type - HV Tube
Bias - 0,
slew rate - 10
Graphic EQ - OFF

You can use the mixer to listen to the Jazz 120 or Micro Boost together or separately.

Any insights, corrections, fixes, updates, modifications, and thoughts are warmly welcomed.
there seems to be something wrong with this preset. It sounds like a ring modulator is on and is extremely low volume.
 
@Postretro Ok, it's the pitch block causing the issue. Disabling that got rid of the ring mod and the volume issue. However, something in the chain is causing white noise to be generated along with every note and it's very bright. I think my bass block is better for the janek/tony grey sound.

I have one channel using the JC120 and the other using the tube pre

i'm using it (with jc120 mostly) for my latest recordings. Here's a sample... Again, i'm not necessarily unhappy with the tone. Just that my actual markbass sounds better, even going direct. I'd like to get the FM3 to sound as good as that!

 

Attachments

  • jc120-bass.syx
    24.1 KB · Views: 7
@jzucker, I was afraid that I might be missing some evil noise, between my headphones and the pitch block
— and my limited hearing range.

One approach would be to add in each mod yourself, starting with a clean default version of the Jazz 120. Add each mod in, one by one, while playing and see which mods work for you and which don’t. Altogether, these mods are pretty extreme. And, there could even be a klinker in the bunch. I was also afraid that this patch might get overdriven by a bass signal. The Micro Boost might be overdriven. Or, you may simply prefer a completely clean shunt in parallel with the amp, or none at all. Or maybe a clean shunt with a filter to remove unwanted highs.

I did turn down the level on the “Input 1” block. You might want set that level back up to 0.0.

You could also turn down the “High Cut” on the “Input EQ” page of the Amp block. It is at 20k.
That might help to reduce some of the white noise.

Also, try sweeping the “Screen Q” on the “Power Supply” page of the Amp block. That may also affect the white noise.

On the same page you will see the Variac set to 150%. Feel free to readjust that and set it to taste.

I also turned off the Graphic EQ in the “Output EQ“ page on the Amp block.
You might want to turn the Graphic EQ back on and see if you prefer that Instead.

Choosing different vacuum tubes and setting the tube hardness to taste is a good way to subtly change the character of the sound
to something more of your liking.

My hope is that you will find a few parameter changes in the bunch that work for you.
These mods do make the amp stiffer and less distorted.
But, the ear hears many other details in the sound.
And, most parameter changes will have more than just one effect on the sound.
The nice part is, you can set these parameters where you like them best.

Again, I apologize for lacking the expertise to make this patch close to perfect the first time.
But, I hope you will find some parameter variations in it that get you closer to your goal.

Blessings.
 
@jzucker, I took your patch and made several mods to scene 3. You can compare the variations more easily this way.

scene 1, Amp A --> is your original "scene 3" -- no changes
-- compare scenes 2, 3 & 4 to your original sound in scene 1. See if any of the changes are a step in the right direction to your ears.
(scenes 4-8 are unused and unmodified)

scene 2, Amp B --> modifies the PSU for more signal headroom and a tighter more accurate response.
Amp block, Power Supply page: The "Variac" has been increased from 100% voltage to 125%. (range 100-150, try more)
Amp block, Power Supply page: The "Power Type" has been changed from AC to DC

scene 3, Amp C --> modifies the speakers to be tighter, more accurate, more responsive.
Amp block, Speaker page: Speaker Compliance from 50 to 60 (range 50-75, maybe even 100?)
Amp block, Speaker page: Speaker Compression from 1 to 0
Amp block, Speaker page: Speaker Time Constant from 2000ms to 500ms (range 2000-0, try less)

Scene 4, Amp D--> modifies the amp (tube stages) to create less distortion
Amp block, Dynamic page: Master Bias Excursion reduced from 100% to 50% (range 100-0, try less)
Amp block, Power Tubes + CF page: Grid Clipping reduced from 30% to 0%

Compare -- scenes 2, 3 & 4 to scene 1 (your original scene 3)

See what you like or don't like. Then adjust the parameters. Or, reset one and try the other by itself.
This should be more organized and informative -- and less kitchen-sinkish.

This should make it much easier for you to compare and discover what works for you.
These modifications are less aggressive. If they work you might want adjust them to be more extreme.

In general, things that make an amp cleaner and tighter also make the tone less colored. It is a trade-off.

Amp block, Preamp page: consider lowering the "Tonestack Freq" from 600 Hz to anywhere between 600-200 Hz
See if a lower Tonestack Frequency sounds or works better for you.

If I am going over old ground for you, please let me know. I hope this is useful.
 

Attachments

  • Bass Mods 1.syx
    24.1 KB · Views: 6
@jzucker, I took your patch and made several mods to scene 3. You can compare the variations more easily this way.

scene 1, Amp A --> is your original "scene 3" -- no changes
-- compare scenes 2, 3 & 4 to your original sound in scene 1. See if any of the changes are a step in the right direction to your ears.
(scenes 4-8 are unused and unmodified)

scene 2, Amp B --> modifies the PSU for more signal headroom and a tighter more accurate response.
Amp block, Power Supply page: The "Variac" has been increased from 100% voltage to 125%. (range 100-150, try more)
Amp block, Power Supply page: The "Power Type" has been changed from AC to DC

scene 3, Amp C --> modifies the speakers to be tighter, more accurate, more responsive.
Amp block, Speaker page: Speaker Compliance from 50 to 60 (range 50-75, maybe even 100?)
Amp block, Speaker page: Speaker Compression from 1 to 0
Amp block, Speaker page: Speaker Time Constant from 2000ms to 500ms (range 2000-0, try less)

Scene 4, Amp D--> modifies the amp (tube stages) to create less distortion
Amp block, Dynamic page: Master Bias Excursion reduced from 100% to 50% (range 100-0, try less)
Amp block, Power Tubes + CF page: Grid Clipping reduced from 30% to 0%

Compare -- scenes 2, 3 & 4 to scene 1 (your original scene 3)

See what you like or don't like. Then adjust the parameters. Or, reset one and try the other by itself.
This should be more organized and informative -- and less kitchen-sinkish.

This should make it much easier for you to compare and discover what works for you.
These modifications are less aggressive. If they work you might want adjust them to be more extreme.

In general, things that make an amp cleaner and tighter also make the tone less colored. It is a trade-off.

Amp block, Preamp page: consider lowering the "Tonestack Freq" from 600 Hz to anywhere between 600-200 Hz
See if a lower Tonestack Frequency sounds or works better for you.

If I am going over old ground for you, please let me know. I hope this is useful.
thanks for all your time. Will try tomorrow!
 
I'm not a bass guy, but had a Helix Floor for 2-3 years after I had Axe FX II XL and before I moved to FM3. I believe HX Stomp uses pretty much the same software as Helix for their processing, perhaps a bit limited and less features. Anyway, I found that Helix sounds great but a bit, ehmm, "plastic", comparing to Fractal. I'd advise you trying it out first, and comparing side by side in terms of sound. Apart from sound there are way more factors that makes Fractal units choice number one for me personally.
 
I'm not a bass guy, but had a Helix Floor for 2-3 years after I had Axe FX II XL and before I moved to FM3. I believe HX Stomp uses pretty much the same software as Helix for their processing, perhaps a bit limited and less features. Anyway, I found that Helix sounds great but a bit, ehmm, "plastic", comparing to Fractal. I'd advise you trying it out first, and comparing side by side in terms of sound. Apart from sound there are way more factors that makes Fractal units choice number one for me personally.

given that most bassists are using SS amps, i'm not sure the "plastic" comment really helps. All I know is that janek gets great sounds out of his helix and I don't get why we need 300 miscellaneous tube amps and can't have even 1 SS bass amp???
 
Ive never heard of someone going from Fractal to HX Stomp, but yes there are a few differences. I actually dont know of any professional musicians using HX Stomp, maybe 1.
Fractal to any of the Helix products is rare but that is on the guitar side, the OP has a more relevant point with the bass stuff. problem is, if the tone he wants is coming from a pro using that gear, it's probably more logical to get that gear. There are certainly pro musicians using the Helix stuff. I was really interested when I saw Fractals list of artists but then realised Petrucci was only using Axe for the effects - then recently I saw him endorsing the Quad Cortex recently lol so it's not always what it seems.
 
Fractal to any of the Helix products is rare but that is on the guitar side, the OP has a more relevant point with the bass stuff. problem is, if the tone he wants is coming from a pro using that gear, it's probably more logical to get that gear. There are certainly pro musicians using the Helix stuff. I was really interested when I saw Fractals list of artists but then realised Petrucci was only using Axe for the effects - then recently I saw him endorsing the Quad Cortex recently lol so it's not always what it seems.

Agreed and I think we should be careful not digressing into fanboism here. It's ok to discuss what's good AND bad about the fractal systems. If we treat fractal as our family member, we risk an honest appraisal of what needs to be improved. In this case, it's not a huge ask. 1 nice and configurable SS bass amp compared to hundreds of guitar amps!
 
given that most bassists are using SS amps, i'm not sure the "plastic" comment really helps. All I know is that janek gets great sounds out of his helix and I don't get why we need 300 miscellaneous tube amps and can't have even 1 SS bass amp???
I can understand why. Getting a great tube sounding modeler is appealing to a way larger market and Fractal is the leader in the high end, best in class modelers.

I think with the great support from others in this forum you should be able to get the tone you want or maybe even something better. As a recent convert from Line 6 to Fractal, I can say the level of support and detail here is a lot nicer. Line 6 has some nice products and with the right settings, amps, speakers they can sound very good. It's just hard to believe it can't be accomplished with Fractal. I doubt Janek just plugged in his HXStomp, picked a preset, and it sounded great right away. I'm sure he had to work hard to get it sounding the way he liked it.
 
I can understand why. Getting a great tube sounding modeler is appealing to a way larger market and Fractal is the leader in the high end, best in class modelers.

I think with the great support from others in this forum you should be able to get the tone you want or maybe even something better. As a recent convert from Line 6 to Fractal, I can say the level of support and detail here is a lot nicer. Line 6 has some nice products and with the right settings, amps, speakers they can sound very good. It's just hard to believe it can't be accomplished with Fractal. I doubt Janek just plugged in his HXStomp, picked a preset, and it sounded great right away. I'm sure he had to work hard to get it sounding the way he liked it.

i'm sure I can get something close but look at it this way. What if I told you that the fractal was a bass modeler but with some tweaking you could get close to the guitar sound you want?
 
BTW, I play bass a little. I have a Warwick Corvette Standard with passive pups. I tried it for a minute or two with the Axe FX III and quite frankly, was not impressed with any of the bass sounds. I like more of an Ampeg grind and to me it just didn't do it for me. I much more prefer just going direct or using an Ampeg model on my UA Apollo Twin.
 
All I know is that janek gets great sounds out of his helix and I don't get why we need 300 miscellaneous tube amps and can't have even 1 SS bass amp???
First of all: Great playing on guitar and bass. Respect.
I completely agree with the disproportion between bass and guitar amps. Especially since there are so many workarounds to configure bass amps. Why does FAS not configure just out of a marketing aspect some bass amps. A well sorted list of bass amps could maybe convince many bass player to change to FAS.
I also was a little into Janek and I like his sound a lot. but consider that he relates a lot on the aguilar tone hammer series. In my opinion this amp tries to emulate the tube pre amp of the db 751. In my ears the tube pre amp is a part of janek's sound. for some recordings he used also a noble preamp that is also based on tubes. recently I saw a video where he promoted the BP1 from Caveman. So what I want to say is that I'm pretty shure that his sound is not based on the amp und cab modelling of the HX Stomp. In my opintion he uses the HX Stomp as one the effect pedals on his huge board. (I'm using the FM3 with the citrus 200 amp an bergantino cab. As a second cab I use seperatly recorded tweeter from bergantino. This setting I use for practising with headphones and am very satisfied with it. In real life I use a DB751 with a bag end 2x10 cab. I have this for several years now and there is no reason to change)
 
With much respect and humility..
Plastic is the word I have used for the helix stuff too.

It's not a fanboy thing. I paid for that experience with actual dollars and a lot of gigs.
 
I wasn't familiar with Janek, been listening to some of his stuff and...wow, love it! However...listening to his HX Stomp vid, he appears to be using it only as an effects pedal with his amp, not direct to board. In that use case...the HX Stomp is IMHO a phenomenal pedal ESPECIALLY for avant garde stuff and ease of quick editing on the fly from the unit. Of course, the FM3 can also excel in oddball effects but the size/price of the Stomp is hard to beat there. Once you add amps to the equation is where I'll take the FM3 all day (when it comes to bass amps clearly YMMV).
 
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