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Thinking of swapping my FM3 for an HX Stomp

Postretro

Inspired
@jzucker, my hope is that once I explain how the higher level modifications work, you will become very fluid and intentional in customizing your bass tone to be exactly what you imagine. We will see. I am working on laying it out in a clear and focused way.
 

MKB99

Member
FWIW, there are several reasons the ICEPower amps are so widely used:
  • They are very reliable
  • The manufacturer design support is unparalleled IME
  • They sound and respond as well as any SS amp and better than tube amps, but are still neutral in tone
  • They respond well to overload conditions (some class D amps do NOT)
  • They have a fully tested and agency approved mains supply, making integration and test far simpler and less expensive
  • They provide a ready to use DC supply for the OEM's additional circuitry, further simplifying and speeding up product design
I am a massive fan of ICEPower amps as I have tested them beside a lot of tube and other solid state amps, and tonally the ICEPower is clearly superior in most cases (if you need an amp without coloration of tubes). But if you are designing a product that needs a high quality SS power amp these days, the ICEPower series is kind of a no-brainer.
 

MKB99

Member
Oh, we're talking about bass amps here; I digressed above. After doing some listening to an Eden bass amp model in Bias, and playing with the deep parameters a bit, I am curious if you could recreate such an amp when set up the way you want in the following way:

Input > Comp > IR of the frequency response of the amp > Cab

Maybe I haven't studied the designs deeply enough, but it appears the big secret in many bass amps is very specific EQ, in some cases complicated. And the human ear is very sensitive to EQ differences. If you had an amp set up the way you liked to hear it (without a cab preferably), and shot an IR of it, that might get you most of the way there. You could then add a cab to taste after that.

One more reason a separate IR block in the FM3 would be nice.
 

Postretro

Inspired
Oh, we're talking about bass amps here; I digressed above. After doing some listening to an Eden bass amp model in Bias, and playing with the deep parameters a bit, I am curious if you could recreate such an amp when set up the way you want in the following way:

Input > Comp > IR of the frequency response of the amp > Cab

Maybe I haven't studied the designs deeply enough, but it appears the big secret in many bass amps is very specific EQ, in some cases complicated. And the human ear is very sensitive to EQ differences. If you had an amp set up the way you liked to hear it (without a cab preferably), and shot an IR of it, that might get you most of the way there. You could then add a cab to taste after that.

One more reason a separate IR block in the FM3 would be nice.
Yes! I am very interested to know if anyone has done a Tone Match of a Bass amp in the Axe FxIII. My thinking is that, once there is a SS Bass Amp model, Presence and Depth controls would be available. Then, a Tone Match could used to get that last bit of defining SS Bass amp character. Or even, to reduce the level of SS power amp character. Meanwhile, for the FM3 and FM9 user, it is still possible to dial-in variations of character. That of course is great for finding a personal tonal character, or slipping more easily from one shade of amp character to another. But, it is a serious project to dial-in and match the tone of a different amp exactly.
 

Postretro

Inspired
But, then again, I wonder, as you do about using a Bass Amp IR with any group of straight-into-the board chain of FX. Unfortunately, I too only have an FM3, and so, I can only speculate about using an IR player or Tone Matching. But, my current place in this world is to help my suffering FM3 brethren. Oh, the suffering!;)
 

Postretro

Inspired
@jzucker, it will probably be at least a hour or two, maybe less, from now. But, I will start the thread and put up an SS Bass patch tonight. I will also add an attachment with some very specific info on the mods and some short notes on each parameter and each parameter change. I will go into more detail later on the thread. I will be very interested in hearing from you about how you like, dislike, or can use the Presence and Depth controls. Also, just in case you haven't tried it already. I would suggest that you go to the "IDEAL" page of the Amp block. Set all your tone controls there. You will have more tone control options on the "IDEAL" page. For instance, "Mid" and "Depth" controls won't even appear on the "AUTHENTIC" page.

Actually, I will just attach the patch here for you. So you can check it out. The cab has factory IR's in it.
4X10 SV BASS 1 121 B1 ML and 2X15 DOUBLESHOW (RW.) I recommend Ultra-Res. The "SPEAKER IMPEDANCE CURVE" is unusual also. It is a 4x10 Super Verb. Let me know what you think.

Edit: there is a 2 octave drop pitch block that bass players will want to turn off.
Edit: patch error -- fixed and replaced at 2:40 am 4/27
 

Attachments

  • Jazz Bass Mods 1.3 427.syx
    24.1 KB · Views: 7
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Jumpback

Experienced
Right but literally none of those sound anything like the amps I'm talking about. A single markbass, aguilar or bergantino SS amp would really solve all the issue. i'm not a rock player so most of those amps don't work for me. I tried using the tube pre and it just didn't work at all for me. The JC120 actually works way better for my music than any of those.
Get the line 6 then👍🏼
 
Solid state bass amps often have no current feedback loop - so all the speaker impedance curve and details regarding voice coil resistance etc. have no effect on the clipping behavior of a solid state design, just as known by tube guitar amplifiers. The internal output resistance of a solid state bass amp is so low, so the ratio between load resistance and internal resistance also known as damping factor is much higher as known by tube amps, so speaker resonance and the rise of impedance on higher frequencies from the voice coil will have no influence...... the preamp circuit on countless modern bass amps is different to guitar tube amps in various ways..... a buffer/input gain stage is followed by a compressor/peak limiter and a tube gain circuit to add more warmth and clipping, then either an active graphic or parametric EQ with different frequency bands than known from guitar amps ..... I would say we have much of these components in the axefx as individual blocks - plus we can limit the influence of the speaker load to the clipping behavior of a power amp to mimic the behavior of a modern bass amp plus load in some bass cabinet IRs and add much "Air" to simulate the horn/piezo driver.......

The HX stomp has two or three more solid state bass models than the Axe - I didn't use them much yet, since I'm not a pro bass player and use my warwick streamer bass only for laying down some basic bass tracks when composing some tunes. My bass player later finish the track by add his track to it..... ;)

If you don't mind the extra parameters and advanced settings plus the extended routing capacities of the FM3, the HX Stomp is a decent unit.....
 

Postretro

Inspired
no effect on the clipping behavior of a solid state design, just as known by tube guitar amplifiers. The internal output resistance of a solid state bass amp is so low, so the ratio between load resistance and internal resistance also known as damping factor is much higher as known by tube amps, so speaker resonance and the rise of impedance on higher frequencies from the voice coil will have no influence...... the preamp circuit on countless modern bass amps is different to guitar tube amps in various ways..... a buffer/input gain stage is followed by a compressor/peak limiter and a tube gain circuit to add more warmth and clipping, then either an active graphic or parametric EQ with different frequency bands than known from guitar amps ..... I would say we have much of these components in the axefx as individual blocks - plus we can limit the influence of the speaker load to the clipping behavior of a power amp to mimic the behavior of a modern bass amp plus load in some bass cabinet IRs and add much "Air" to simulate the horn/piezo driver.......
I am sure this is true in real life. However, it is not for the Jazz 120 model. It now has working Presence and Depth controls. Now, that may be something different then it appears to be. But, it sounds right to me. Since the Jazz 120 is a model and not an actual amp all the speaker parameters are fully operational. It should be noted that the Jazz 120's speaker Impedance curve is very very not flat. I would really appreciate if you would test out the Jazz 120 (JC120) Bass patch I put together and give me your critical thoughts. The wonderful thing about an amp model is that many features of the sound can be dialed in separately. It is very different from real life analog amps. There are so many compromises that have to be made in an analog amp design. In a model many aspects can be adjusted discretely while in an analog amp the same adjustment would be very interrelated and have many side effects.

There are also very detailed notes about which parameters were adjusted in a text file.

https://forum.fractalaudio.com/threads/parameter-mods-ss-jazz-bass-jazz-120.183546/#post-2257530

I would really appreciate your ears and opinions. I wish I could get @Will Chen to critically listen to it too.
 

MKB99

Member
I just had a quick look at the Roland JC120 schematic, it does not appear to have a Presence or Depth control that uses power amp NFB trickery to change its response. Not many solid state amps do, about the only exception that comes to mind is the Peavey Transtube topology. But it isn't hard to mimic Presence and Depth with shelving EQ I'd think, and some amps do it that way. The JC120 power amps appear to be a standard class AB solid state topology, maybe not as accurate and clean as modern digital amps. IMHO a straight cab IR would be best for speaker emulation if you're wanting to emulate a digital power amp equipped bass amp, you'd basically be using it for its EQ properties only.

I'd like to try emulating a modern bass amp by shooting an IR of its base tone with all EQ flat, and then adding an appropriate tone stack and perhaps a parametric EQ after that for further shaping. If a special EQ control is added, like the Eden Enhance knob, maybe emulate that with another parametric if it isn't too complicated a curve. If any tube coloring is needed, add a studio tube preamp to the mix.

Postretro, thanks for all the models, I hope to try those out as soon as I get an hour or so to focus on it (pesky day jobs and consulting, really cuts into play time...)
 

Postretro

Inspired
Postretro, thanks for all the models, I hope to try those out as soon as I get an hour or so to focus on it (pesky day jobs and consulting, really cuts into play time...)
@MKB99, try the last one the first, Double Verb SS-ified. That is the best.
The pitch shifter is on for guitar (2 octaves down.) So, bypass that for bass.
 

alex1fly

Inspired
If you like the FM3 just get a different solution for bass. No need to sell an amazing guitar processor in order to have an ampless bass DI. Sansamp is one such tried and true solution for bass.
 

Xcdchdchjjf

Inspired
If you like the FM3 just get a different solution for bass. No need to sell an amazing guitar processor in order to have an ampless bass DI. Sansamp is one such tried and true solution for bass.
I just DI my bass into the FM3... not sure what "amp tone" one oculd want with a bass..... there are great studio compressors in the FM3, as well as eq, multiband compressors, etc. Oh well ;)
 

jzucker

Experienced
If you like the FM3 just get a different solution for bass. No need to sell an amazing guitar processor in order to have an ampless bass DI. Sansamp is one such tried and true solution for bass.
sansamp is a very poor solution compared to a modeler for what I'm doing
 
I am sure this is true in real life. However, it is not for the Jazz 120 model. It now has working Presence and Depth controls. Now, that may be something different then it appears to be. But, it sounds right to me. Since the Jazz 120 is a model and not an actual amp all the speaker parameters are fully operational. It should be noted that the Jazz 120's speaker Impedance curve is very very not flat. I would really appreciate if you would test out the Jazz 120 (JC120) Bass patch I put together and give me your critical thoughts. The wonderful thing about an amp model is that many features of the sound can be dialed in separately. It is very different from real life analog amps. There are so many compromises that have to be made in an analog amp design. In a model many aspects can be adjusted discretely while in an analog amp the same adjustment would be very interrelated and have many side effects.

There are also very detailed notes about which parameters were adjusted in a text file.

https://forum.fractalaudio.com/threads/parameter-mods-ss-jazz-bass-jazz-120.183546/#post-2257530

I would really appreciate your ears and opinions. I wish I could get @Will Chen to critically listen to it too.
I'm aware that there is a gap between the real life and the AxeFx. But that is not the point. The JC120 is just a digital model that fits into the parameter feature-set of the AxeFx amp block. To solve this issue, there are two ways..... first: use a dedicated bass amp block or build your own "bass amp" by using pre filter, compressor, tube booster, EQ and the console parameter in the cabinets block to mimic a modern bass amplifier preamp topology......
 

Xcdchdchjjf

Inspired
I'm aware that there is a gap between the real life and the AxeFx. But that is not the point. The JC120 is just a digital model that fits into the parameter feature-set of the AxeFx amp block. To solve this issue, there are two ways..... first: use a dedicated bass amp block or build your own "bass amp" by using pre filter, compressor, tube booster, EQ and the console parameter in the cabinets block to mimic a modern bass amplifier preamp topology......
Yup. Exactly. Nuff said.
 

jzucker

Experienced
I'm aware that there is a gap between the real life and the AxeFx. But that is not the point. The JC120 is just a digital model that fits into the parameter feature-set of the AxeFx amp block. To solve this issue, there are two ways..... first: use a dedicated bass amp block or build your own "bass amp" by using pre filter, compressor, tube booster, EQ and the console parameter in the cabinets block to mimic a modern bass amplifier preamp topology......

or we could just have 1 or 2 dedicated solid state bass amps added to the hundreds of tube amps already available.
 

Cam Heiliger

Inspired
or we could just have 1 or 2 dedicated solid state bass amps added to the hundreds of tube amps already available.
Unfortunately, we don’t right now, and may not for sometime. Therefor, in order to actually solve your problem, you will either have to get creative with the current limitations, or switch to a different tool that more easily and directly addresses your needs. Only you can decide which path makes more sense.
 

jzucker

Experienced
Unfortunately, we don’t right now, and may not for sometime. Therefor, in order to actually solve your problem, you will either have to get creative with the current limitations, or switch to a different tool that more easily and directly addresses your needs. Only you can decide which path makes more sense.
which is what we're doing in this and other threads...
 

stub

Member
Would it be accurate/useful to say that a bass amp signal path would have these general qualities:

EQ/Spectrum-- essentially the amp's influence on tone, the tone-stack itself, the cab IR, and its filters
Dynamics-- essentially how much the various elements squish the dynamic response. And does it do so in a frequency dependent (i.e., multi-band) way?
Non-Linearities-- aspects/elements that add "warrmth", "drive", "distortion", and otherwise add harmonics not present in the dry signal

Would it be fair to suggest that once you have the dynamics and non-linearities where you want them-- i.e., season to taste, then the rest (and, perhaps the hard part) is to get the EQ curve where you want it for the whole range of your instrument?

My big question is: How much of this quest for a good, modern, clean, SS bass tone can be solved with aggressive and skillful use of filters and EQ?

Also, would it be possible to use the FM3's pitch tracking to modulate some notch filter's frequency-- providing a bass player only played monophonically? How useful would that type of function be? Would the pitch tracking for bass be stable & quick enough to be useful?
 
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