The truth of the "micd up" guitar sound over "real" sound ?

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paulmapp8306

Fractal Fanatic
Firstly a few caveats.

1. For those who have read my "7 FRFR solutions" thread this point has been covered (maybe not so well) - though in the thread not the first post. For those who have skimmed it - or not read it I wanted to make these points specifically. For thoese that have read it all you may find this of no further use.

2. this is in no way knocking those who have found happiness in their FRFR solutions, it is more aimed at those who have tried it and didnt get on with it. If your happy - your happy.

3. Most of this information has been gained from talking to people in the PA buisiness - top end stuff, big venues/giggs, hire people etc. While it has been backed up by my demos over the last couple of weeks any point which I may have mis-interpreted or just got wrong please highlight - for the benefit of us all.

4. The "summary" is IMO. It may not be yours. as Scott so often says (and is sometimes ignored) there are so many ways with the axe, eneryone is different and finds happiness a different way. As always its whats right for you that matters not whats right for someone else..

So what am I blabbering on about?

Well a common comment on here when people dont like the FRFR sound is that its not a live cab, Its the sound of a mic'd up cab which is different. Its something you have to get your hear around. Well it turns out this is not exactly true. heres why.

Ther are actually 3 types of guitar sound really.

1. The real amp/cab. We all know and love this sound and many spend $1000s to chase the tone. Its what were used to.

2. The recorded guitar sound. This IS different and is actually the "micd up" sound people are talking about. It is partly to do with mic placement and EQ etc but is mainly because no matter what the final medium is (vinal, CD, MP3 etc) it is compressed. When you hear a CD the guitar sound (along with most other things) has lost most if not all of its dynamics. The tone may be there but not the feel. Of course when listening it isnt so obvious, when playing to this sound it is. Its one reason why IMO the POD sounds terrible (AND why some people have not got on with FRFR solutions - this is covered later).

3. Live FOH guitar sound. The point here is to get the sound FOH as close to the guitar sound on stage as possible. Maybe a few EQ tweeks to get it to sit in the mix better, but in general you want the sound AND feel/dynamics to be there. It is possible and done regularly at festivals, big gigs etc. Its the "feel/dynamics" part that is often lost with the FRFR solutions common on this forum.

So - whats this got to do with the Axe?

Well as I have found out through talking to the professionals, PA (like most things) comes in at many levels. The bottom end is cheap, basic and just gets a loud sound out there. I dont know anyone who would use that with the Axe though really so well leave that alone. The second level up is good quality, low level, (reletively) cheap kit. Kit that will take some abuse and sound good. Most FRFR solutions mooted on the forum come from this group. Stuff like QSC HPR 122i, K12 - FBT verve, RCF Art series etc. The next level is Pro audio. RCFs more expensive stuff (TT range), along with HK, Coda, Decent JBL, Martin, Meyer stuff and many more makes as well. There is higher end/more expensive stuff too - line arrays etc but thats really beyond us here.

Now it appears that the most common kit used by us (that second tier of kit) is NOT actually designed for live band re-inforcement really (though because of price many bands use it as "band" PAs). it is designed for pubs/clubs primarily playing RECORDED sound - mobile DJs playing RECORDED sound etc. As such while it needs to sound good, and be fairly flat response it does NOT need to replecate good dynamics. Why? its more expensive to do and that recorded music doesnt have it anyway. Play a recording through these PAs and they sound good. Play the AXE and IMO it doesnt really. Its the missing something that people who have not got on with FRFR try to define.

The PRO-level kit however DOES replecate the dynamics. This is the kit we SHOULD IMO be using here. Having tried the Coda I can vouch for how "real amp" or "in the room" it is. It isnt cheap though. In the UK, the coda has a rrp of £2000 (though I was offered one at £1300 with discounts) against the RCF 322a £600, K12 £750, 122i £800 etc. Others I have found are more than that (some not - If you need a vedge monitor try RCFs 4Pro -3002-sma monitor at just over £1000 http://www.rcf.it/en_US/web/rcf/product ... o-3002-sma ). Is it THAT expensive - IMO no (though I cant fund it at present). The Axe Ultra is £1900 in the UK now. A PRS/Anderson/Suhr/Tyler guitar is £2000+. A Messa 2:90 £1200, VHT 2:50:2 £1000, Add a decent 2 or 4x12 cab to go with the PA at £800 or more the "PA" system comse in at £1800+. Bearing that in mind the Coda (and those in its bracket) for an amp and speaker around £2000 becomes much more realistic.

Do you need to spend that much? depends what you want. If your self monitoring only you want to hear what the audiance hears. If the venue(s) you play in uses QSCs, RCFs, Mackies or equivilant then no. Your going to get a better monitored sound than out front, but thats not what you want. If your happy with the cheaper FRFR solutions then No again - your happy why change?. If however you need to run your FRFR as backline - so you want a real cab sound, dynamics and all, but with the cab options the axe gives you (not to be stuck with your 4x12 say) then YES it is worth it. If you have tried FRFR solutions but were left cold - YES it is worth it.

So - to sum up, IMO,

1. The "mic'd up" guitar sound ISNT what we really mean when describing standard FRFR solutions. what we mean is a "recorded" sound and the compression/lack of dynamics that has.

2. FRFR solutions dont HAVE to sound like that - you just have to pay more to get pro level kit that does generate those dynamics.

3. With a bit of luck, the Fratomic may offer a cheaper solution complete WITH the dynamics. it may not BUT people who have heard it have said it sounds "in the room" which is kinda the sound Im trying to describe. it IS FRFR, but also generates dynamics which is why it feels "in the room" (hopefully). If it doesnt - I for one will be saving for a decent Pro level FRFR solution.

If tom could chip in here on whether the Fratomic does this great - if not fine. Id rather he spent his time getting it "out there" ;)
 
Again very articulate and well put post. I guess in order to have that in the room sound of a miced amp out of an FRFR system it sounds like one has to spend some money. As you have pointed out one can drop 1500-2K on the Axe, 2-3K on a guitar and 2K for a tube power amp/cab combination or a highend FRFR cab assuming everything your buying is new, through in a foot controller $100-$1000 depending on how elaborate you want to get.

It sounds like to get the quality and expectations to be consistent out of an FRFR system the amount spent needs to be consistent. This kind of makes sence to me as a lot of tube rack rigs and even some standard boutique amp rigs have the same amount wrapped up in them as well.

Not knowing a lot about highend FRFR cabs I am real courious as to what makes a highend FRFR cab produce the sounds that warrent the exspence. Not saying their a ripoff just wondering what components are being used to accomplish the end result.

As to the Atomic offering I'd like to here Larry Mitchells opionion seeing how he seams to be the only one who has used them in a live setting live at this point... Larry how about it?
 
I agree with all of the above and you could summarize it with the chain analogy: your sound chain is only as strong as its weakest link, so why spend thousands in and Axe-Fx just to put it through a sound system which is no match in terms of dynamics?...well I know...it's costly, but in the long term it will be a great investment as the Axe I think. Well as others have said before: YMMV.

I believe the great question for someone with limited budget is:

what are you willing to sacrifice the most...tone or feel?
 
A highly informative post, well made. This really should be stickied in an Axe-FX 101 for those considering investing in one. I have already wasted a substantial sum of money discovering for myself what you have just explained, chasing FRFR solutions when in hindsight I should have invested in a power amp and cab from the beginning. I too am hoping the Fractomic will reproduce the dynamics you describe and would like to hear from anyone who has tried it.
 
I believe a brief explanation of some basics will be helpful.

1. Dynamic range - this is defined as the ratio (usually expressed in decibels) between the noise floor of a system and the strongest signal it can produce. Even when played through a very linear amplification system (e.g., straight into the mix desk via an appropriate DI), electric guitar has a very limited dynamic range compared to any acoustic instrument. Tube amps compress this range substantially, even when the sound is relatively clean. With CD-quality or better recordings, the dynamic range of the medium exceeds that of the instrument/amp combination by a huge margin. Capturing the full dynamic range of an amplified, saturated guitar is one of the least challenging tasks confronting a truly competent recording engineer. The challenge in recording an accurate "in the room" guitar sound has next to nothing to do with dynamics. It is almost entirely due to the compromises entailed in close-mic'ing, which was adopted for reasons unrelated to the quality of the guitar sound.

2. FOH guitar sound - I almost never hear a translation of guitar sound via the FOH PA that impresses me. Generally there is no improvement in dynamic range as compared to the artists' recordings. On the contrary, there is often less, as evidenced by the sound itself and by the gain reduction meters on the compressors inserted into the guitar channels. Lip service to "sound quality" notwithstanding, there are necessarily much higher priorities for the major concert rental companies. I know this quite well, having once served time as Manager of QC for one of the largest such companies that ever existed.

3. Money vs. "quality" - while it is true that the more neutral among currently available FRFR monitors are relatively expensive, it would be possible to build one that is suitable for our purposes that is much more modestly priced than the premium units. The problem with such a product is that the market for it is too small for a manufacturer to realistically expect to recover nonrecurring development costs.

Now, here's the key issue: the greatest obstacle to "amp in the room" sound from an Axe-Fx is the accuracy and uniformity of response from the monitor. Any monitor that will get loud enough without being overdriven has more dynamic range than the guitar. See the definition of "dynamic range" above. In order to achieve suitable uniformity of response, a two way speaker must be coaxial. There is no escaping this result of the laws of physics. While the coaxial configuration is no guarantee of uniformity, it must be present for that to even be possible.
 
OK - I stand corrected on some points. I admit that the difference if teh systems I tried was More so with a clean guitar sound over a saturated one.

Maybe dynamic range isnt what I meant. Dynamic feel maybe? I dont know. Suffice it to say with the more pro kit I tried I could "feel" the punch of the attack rather than just hear it. When I dug in I got the same punch and thump I get from a tube amp. With the cheaper options I didnt "feel" any of that. Maybe thats not dynamic range (and I agree with your explanation - well put).

As you say - it should be possible to build a pro level system that stays uniform as you suggest at a decent price. Im hoping the Fratomic is that solution. However is ist co-axial !! (the coda I tried was).

I have seen some impressive 3 wasy solutions too. There not co-axial but are equaly as good, if not better than the Codas. ting is there substantially heavier - even that the 122i, and a lot more money. Upward of £2.5k in the UK.
 
paulmapp8306 said:
Maybe dynamic range isnt what I meant. Dynamic feel maybe? I dont know. Suffice it to say with the more pro kit I tried I could "feel" the punch of the attack rather than just hear it.
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I got it... I don't know english term... "micro-dettaglio"... micro-details... it's referred to the speed of reply of a sistem... I think it's correlated to power section of an amp and damp.
 
paulmapp8306 said:
OK - I stand corrected on some points. I admit that the difference if teh systems I tried was More so with a clean guitar sound over a saturated one.

Maybe dynamic range isnt what I meant. Dynamic feel maybe? I dont know. Suffice it to say with the more pro kit I tried I could "feel" the punch of the attack rather than just hear it. When I dug in I got the same punch and thump I get from a tube amp. With the cheaper options I didnt "feel" any of that. Maybe thats not dynamic range (and I agree with your explanation - well put).

As you say - it should be possible to build a pro level system that stays uniform as you suggest at a decent price. Im hoping the Fratomic is that solution. However is ist co-axial !! (the coda I tried was).

I have seen some impressive 3 wasy solutions too. There not co-axial but are equaly as good, if not better than the Codas. ting is there substantially heavier - even that the 122i, and a lot more money. Upward of £2.5k in the UK.
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Humour the uneducated... What is meant by coaxial?
 
The marketer's golden ticket. Does the search for the holy grail never end? There is always something better out there or on the horizon. Using the "weakest link" theory, You are only as good as the weakest link in your ...whatever it is. The bottom line is at what point you are satisfied with the weakest link in your chain? It is like an endless loop...you will always have a weakest link. So, unless at some point you become satisfied with your "kit" you will always be able to find a weak link for eternity. But at the end of the day, was it ever really worth the investment in time, frustration, money, opportunity cost? At some point, one must assess the diminishing returns considering limited resources of time and money.
 
Jay Mitchell said:
3. Money vs. "quality" - while it is true that the more neutral among currently available FRFR monitors are relatively expensive, it would be possible to build one that is suitable for our purposes that is much more modestly priced than the premium units. The problem with such a product is that the market for it is too small for a manufacturer to realistically expect to recover nonrecurring development costs.
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Isn't this exactly what the Atomic FR is supposed to be?

Jay Mitchell said:
...In order to achieve suitable uniformity of response, a two way speaker must be coaxial. There is no escaping this result of the laws of physics. While the coaxial configuration is no guarantee of uniformity, it must be present for that to even be possible.
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I don't think the Atomic FR is coaxial, is it? Does that mean it's doomed from the start? Jay, just curious, what do you use for your personal monitoring solution?
 
Ringleader said:
Isn't this exactly what the Atomic FR is supposed to be?
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Yes, it is a highly specialized product. Time will tell if it is successful.

I don't think the Atomic FR is coaxial, is it?
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No.

Does that mean it's doomed from the start?
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"Doomed" is a loaded word. A non-coaxial system cannot possibly have uniform response in the region of the crossover frequency over a significant angular spread. Ergo, the response of the Atomic FR in its crossover region (at least) will be noticeably different at different angles.

My monitor is not readily available to end users. If it were, its price be would unacceptable to the vast majority of Axe-Fx users.
 
mesaboog said:
So, unless at some point you become satisfied with your "kit" you will always be able to find a weak link for eternity.
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The true weak link, with a handful of notable exceptions, is the player. If there is a "holy grail," it is to be found by acquiring the requisite skill set, not in identifying and purchasing some mythical, magical piece of gear. If a checkbook or credit card were all that were required to achieve the "holy grail," the world would be crawling with masters of the instrument. :lol:
 
Jay Mitchell said:
mesaboog said:
So, unless at some point you become satisfied with your "kit" you will always be able to find a weak link for eternity.
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The true weak link, with a handful of notable exceptions, is the player. If there is a "holy grail," it is to be found by acquiring the requisite skill set, not in identifying and purchasing some mythical, magical piece of gear. If a checkbook or credit card were all that were required to achieve the "holy grail," the world would be crawling with masters of the instrument. :lol:
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Amen brutha!
 
Jay Mitchell said:
Ringleader said:
Isn't this exactly what the Atomic FR is supposed to be?
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Yes, it is a highly specialized product. Time will tell if it is successful.
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With this response I kind of get the impression that you're as out of the Atomic FR loop as the rest of us? As much as a resource as you have been around here I would have thought Tom and the gang would have at least communicated with you (and other users) on some level about what would be the very best possible solution for the Axe-Fx. This whole coaxial thing - and most importantly the Atomic FR NOT being coaxial - kind of has my undies in a bunch :lol: and it seems like this is a major oversight??? Whatever. Speculate as I may I won't know for sure whether it is "right" for me until I have my hands on one.
 
Ringleader said:
With this response I kind of get the impression that you're as out of the Atomic FR loop as the rest of us?
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I am "the rest of us." I have no special relationship with FAS or Atomic, and I have neither solicited nor been offered that privilege.
 
Jay Mitchell said:
Ringleader said:
With this response I kind of get the impression that you're as out of the Atomic FR loop as the rest of us?
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I am "the rest of us." I have no special relationship with FAS or Atomic, and I have neither solicited nor been offered that privilege.
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So I am just like you. :cool:




...except for that super genius part. :lol: :lol:


Thanks for the info.
 
Excellent thread! I find Jay's responses extremely helpful while I debate MY current situation with the AxeFX. I'm running the AxeFX Standard into an ART SLA-1 into a traditional Avatar 1x12 (currently loaded with a Celestion Lead 80). I still have one kick ass tube amp in house (Suhr Badger 30) which gives up some incredible tone at any volume (love the power scaling) and I have to admit, for the FEW TONES the Badger 30 puts out, they slay my AxeFX rig.
That being said, I know the potential in the AxeFX -- it's in there for sure, I just don't know if I have the time (or energy) or money to fully realize the potential of the unit. As many know, I have struggled with this exact issue in the past... multiple times :cry:
It's a touch call for sure, does one:
1. Accept the AxeFX as a super versatile, incredibly flexible unit with amazing direct recording capabilities AND work with it as a traditional preamp -> power amp -> guitar cab? Accepting that this is NOT the ideal situation but learn to tweak the rig to get the most out of it?
2. Continue to chase the tone to get 110% by going with FRFR that might not get you there (because of the points outlined by the OP, Jay, others)where you end up going back to the traditional rig?
I don't know; maybe the Fractomic will fill a gap because it is truely "customized" for the AxeFX while still being attainable from a monetary prospective.
EDIT: why are all of the really good FRFR solutions being produced in Europe and harder to attain in the US anyway?
 
Gasp100 said:
Continue to chase the tone to get 110% by going with FRFR that might not get you there (because of the points outlined by the OP, Jay, others)where you end up going back to the traditional rig?
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If all you need is one tone (or one tone type) and are mostly playing in a studio or home without the use of a full PA, then a traditional rig is hard to beat. However, if you are playing out with the use of a full PA, then even if you only need one tone, the Axe is the way to go. If you really care about your tone at FOH, you will be happier with the Axe (unless you are fortunate enough to have a really good full time soundman).

Also, if your traditional rig is anything like mine used to be, you won't want to lug that monster around all the time!

I went FRFR and haven't looked back. Does it sound as good as my traditional rig when comparing the one "great" tone I acheived? Well, if you set the rig up in the studio and listen to it at the sweet spot, then no. But for real world situations like crappy stages in terrible sounding halls, the Axe with FRFR sounds incredible and blows away my traditional rig.

I would like to try the Fratomic when it arrives because as Jay points out, it should be a purpose built monitor for the Axe. Maybe it will put the last touch on a great product.
 
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