The Smashing Pumpkins

54321pj Muchas gracias joder y perdona el vocabulario pero me has llevado a un enlace muy muy interesante hay mucho para leer y eso me interesa mucho muy bien 5432pj
Muchas gracias 54321pj compañero y por la gran ayuda que me has facilitado
Atentamente
P.A.Romero
 
That’s crazy while reading all the details, I have listen back to Siamese dream (in cd with expensive studio monitoring) , the record sound … empty 😅. the mix is bad to me . Some records don’t go better with the time 😅. The songs are cool but the recording 😬.

If you put just 2 guitars hard panned with a big muff you have a bigger sound than this . I don’t know what they have done with their “+10 guitar tracks” but the guitar is down the mix and not huge . It was 93 but this record is surely not a nevermind or a black album
 
That’s crazy while reading all the details, I have listen back to Siamese dream (in cd with expensive studio monitoring) , the record sound … empty 😅. the mix is bad to me . Some records don’t go better with the time 😅. The songs are cool but the recording 😬.

If you put just 2 guitars hard panned with a big muff you have a bigger sound than this . I don’t know what they have done with their “+10 guitar tracks” but the guitar is down the mix and not huge . It was 93 but this record is surely not a nevermind or a black album
The stacked fuzz tracks definitely suck some power out of the guitars, but that's part of its charm. The deluxe edition reissue from about a decade ago sounds a bit fuller, but at the expense of some dynamic range.
 
This doesn't say which version it is. There's many different ones.

In any case, it's likely not the op amp version (because that one is less common/popular), which is what Billy Corgan used. EHX came out with a reissue recently and it's relatively cheap. It might be worth picking it up if you're trying to really match that tone, but as mentioned above a lot of that tone is from multi tracking the guitar parts.

He also used a Fender Blender on Siamese Dream. I read that's what's squealing during Mayonaise.
I just go into the drive pedal settings and switch transisters to op-amp.
 
The stacked fuzz tracks definitely suck some power out of the guitars, but that's part of its charm. The deluxe edition reissue from about a decade ago sounds a bit fuller, but at the expense of some dynamic range.
Yea, just my silly take on it, but that album isn't really about dynamic guitars- the distorted guitars are layered in a way that just makes them this wall of fuzz, and even the cleans are really heavily compressed- you can almost feel the compression doing it's thing in the cleans.

It's for sure not a Nevermind or Black album, but it's not supposed to be. It's highly stylized, with a specific vision. I don't know, I'm kinda talking out of my ass here, but to me, I guess it always felt like the dynamics of the album played out in the songs, rather than the tones. But what the hell do I know.
 
I was really surprise today . I know these records by heart but rarely listen to them now, specially gish and Siamese, (I listen more to the Mellon collie and the rest )
But this contrast between the interview like « wow we spent 15 hours to do the intro of « today » » like they tried to do the best sounding record ever and then you push play and 😅 … but they sold millions and it’s a classic whatever I say about it . Just talking . I like the band
 
Yea, just my silly take on it, but that album isn't really about dynamic guitars- the distorted guitars are layered in a way that just makes them this wall of fuzz, and even the cleans are really heavily compressed- you can almost feel the compression doing it's thing in the cleans.

It's for sure not a Nevermind or Black album, but it's not supposed to be. It's highly stylized, with a specific vision. I don't know, I'm kinda talking out of my ass here, but to me, I guess it always felt like the dynamics of the album played out in the songs, rather than the tones. But what the hell do I know.
Agreed. I personally love the way the album sounds, even if it's not the best guitar tone laid to tape. The wall of noise that is the ascending verse riff in "Quiet" is still one of my favorite moments in music.
 
SP were my favorite band growing up when I was learning guitar, so I've spent a lot of time researching for and building patches for Siamese Dream and Mellon Collie sounds (I use FM3, fair warning). A few things I've noted (and I'd be happy to share the patches if someone wants to check them out, I just haven't done that before so I'll have to learn how).

Siamese:

I use the JCM 800 model and alter the tube type to KT-88, turn master volume to full, and use gain control as master volume. You have to keep it very low to keep the amp clean for clean parts (all of the distortion will come from the big muff). I tried to pick cabs similar to the vintage 4x12 Marshall ones Billy used but you can use your ears on the IRs. It can help to use a compressor before the amp to make sure the clean tone stays clean, depends on the guitar. I can't recall exact b/m/t settings but that's sort of to-taste.

For the distorted tone, put the PI Fuzz in the chain and swap out the transisters to OpAmp type. Set the volume and sustain to full, and then use the tone knob to search for the SD fuzz frequencies. I find that for my guitars, it's somewhere between 1:00 and 4:00, but it varies by guitar. This whole approach is more or less taken straight from interviews.

For solos, like Cherub Rock, I use the zero-through flanger with an extra 2-3 db of gain, and I can't tell you anything about my settings without looking, I experimented until it sounded right. On the record they use actual tape flange so no particular pedal is going to do that exactly.

Mellon Collie:

Focusing here on getting the distorted sound (a la WBFTT or Jellybelly). Billy's original rig is a Marshall JMP-1 with dual Mesa Strategy 500 power amps in stereo. The best I could do to replicate this was to use the Brit Pre (can't remember the name of the channel, it's OD2 bass response or something) and then make all the power amp settings as similar to the USA Pre power amp settings as I could. Maybe this is a naive approach but it sounded good so I went ahead with it.

Similar to the SD set up, Billy sets the amp at max volume and uses the gain control as a volume, so for clean sound you need the gain very low. In the live setting he was using an Alesis compressor in between the pre-amp and power amp to drive additional volume and slam the hell out of the power amp. The approach is trying to get as much of the drive as possible from the power amp. I set the pre-amp master volume at max, and the gain control at about 9:00 or less for clean sounds, but for distortion, at least noon or more on the gain, and then also engage the boost circuit, probably to max. It gets that muscular Mellon Collie distorted sound, and it's the only way I could think of to do the boosting between the pre-amp and power amp sections, without getting too much of the pre-amp distortion sound.

Similar on the cabinets as above, I experimented with combinations of the 60's marshall 4x12 cabs until it sounded good to me. There's a lot of bass in the mix which I get from the basic amp controls. It's a bit out of control, it will spit noise at you if you're not playing, but that's how his guitar sounded live on that tour so I look at it as goal achieved.

If I get the Axe III (always considering it, just need to save up) I think I'll try doing a stereo rig with dual amps, so I can use the Tri-Axis on one channel to represent James, and the JMP-1 in the other for the Billy sound, and see if they blend into a better approximation of the album sound.

Bonus Points: Gish

Since there's no ADA MP-1 model in the Fractal, I just found that if I use the Friedman HBE V3 with my Strat it sounds very good and I don't really miss any additional verisimilitude.
 
(Cough)

View attachment 91670
Just one of the many different rigs he had . sound geek? so the best advice I can give you is to built a clean and dist patch you like, and learn to play the songs well . Take a strat . Same here I listen to them since forever . Met billy once recently at one of his solo show
Are those Crate practice amps up top?
 
I was thinking of the tech yes . Just to test something quickly or …

I looked it up! One of the Crate practice amps was sold on Reverb, and the listing explains how he used it:

This Crate GX15R is from the private collection of Billy Corgan.

Believe it or not, this little combo was responsible for the heavy distortion sounds on Machina. This is the Machina sound. Corgan would run out of the headphone jack or the speaker jack, similar to a DI. These little Crate combos were dimed, essentially becoming distortion pedals, and were routed out into the board.

The amazing thing about this little Crate amp is that it still has the strip of tape with Corgan's settings for the Machina album distortion sound on it – Gain and Level dimed, Overdrive on, Lows at 10 o'clock, Mids scooped to nothing, and Highs dimed, with no reverb. There is some tolex missing from the front bottom, and someone put black tape over the Crate logo.

The amp works perfectly. It is incredibly mean when thrown to the old Machina settings, and surprisingly expressive and dynamic when backed off to more traditional settings. A great practice or studio amp with incredible history behind it.


Here's the original listing (sold): https://reverb.com/item/6319279-crate-gx15r-1990s-black-tolex-owned-by-billy-corgan-1-machina
 
I looked it up! One of the Crate practice amps was sold on Reverb, and the listing explains how he used it:

This Crate GX15R is from the private collection of Billy Corgan.

Believe it or not, this little combo was responsible for the heavy distortion sounds on Machina. This is the Machina sound. Corgan would run out of the headphone jack or the speaker jack, similar to a DI. These little Crate combos were dimed, essentially becoming distortion pedals, and were routed out into the board.

The amazing thing about this little Crate amp is that it still has the strip of tape with Corgan's settings for the Machina album distortion sound on it – Gain and Level dimed, Overdrive on, Lows at 10 o'clock, Mids scooped to nothing, and Highs dimed, with no reverb. There is some tolex missing from the front bottom, and someone put black tape over the Crate logo.

The amp works perfectly. It is incredibly mean when thrown to the old Machina settings, and surprisingly expressive and dynamic when backed off to more traditional settings. A great practice or studio amp with incredible history behind it.


Here's the original listing (sold): https://reverb.com/item/6319279-crate-gx15r-1990s-black-tolex-owned-by-billy-corgan-1-machina
🤣🤣🤣. I was joking but it was true !
 
That’s crazy while reading all the details, I have listen back to Siamese dream (in cd with expensive studio monitoring) , the record sound … empty 😅. the mix is bad to me . Some records don’t go better with the time 😅. The songs are cool but the recording 😬.

I love your posts mud - whether I agree or not, I never have to doubt if you express your true opinion!

Almost completely off topic, I've recently got close to completion of the control room of my dreams, so I have a really precise listening space (but now realise I need a sub for some of the music I want to examine/enjoy in detail). I've had to re-evaluate a lot of music that I thought of as amazingly well-recorded when I can hear everything in reasonably accurate detail and with good stereo separation. Might just have to destroy my own soul by listening to Gish in there soon! :eek: It has always been a huge favourite of mine.

Slightly further off topic, I always knew the first few songs on The Small Faces' Ogdens Nut Gone Flake were far from perfect in production, but sheesh! They are a whole new take for me trying to get past the recording quality and enjoy the music.

I get what you are saying entirely, and will see if my own experience backs it up.

Liam
 
Defo would like to try your patches - thanks
I figured out how to share, was easier than I thought:

https://axechange.fractalaudio.com/detail.php?preset=9253
https://axechange.fractalaudio.com/detail.php?preset=9254

Kind of straight forward, the Siamese one has a clean, rhythm, and lead channel (the lead is basically just for Cherub Rock, haven't gotten around to other songs). Mellon Collie rig has a clean sound that if played softly can do galapogos clean, strummed harder you can get that sound on intro to Bullet with Butterfly Wings. The 3rd channel, crunch, is for things where he's not using all the gain, think verse riff to Here Is No Why. Channel 2, "Cyber-Metal" is for the all out sound, An Ode to No One, Jellybelly, XYU etc.

I set these up around an SG with '57 classics and I run sennheiser headphones most of the time when I play, so they may need adjustments for your guitar and speakers/room. Enjoy!
 
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