The Last Rack Unit Modeler I Will Buy

unix-guy said:
Plini wants to tour with his laptop and a guitar only but has said that (as of early 2019 when I heard it) it was not yet stable enough trust.
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When I saw Plini before the pandemic, IIRC he was using an AxeFX, plus a computer for preset switching and click track. There were 3 acts on the bill that night and all of them were using computers. And all of them were using AxeFX's :).
 
Yeah, having windows update itself automatically in the middle of a show would be the kind of “fun” I’d rather do without. 😅
 
GlennO said:
When I saw Plini before the pandemic, IIRC he was using an AxeFX, plus a computer for preset switching and click track. There were 3 acts on the bill that night and all of them were using computers. And all of them were using AxeFX's :).
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He talked about it at Vai Academy... Yes, he was using it for those things as well as some backing tracks for some material I think. But his ultimate goal was no Axe Fx, either.

For him as an independent artist from Australia it's already expensive for him to travel and cartage costs add to that. Since he's already got to bring the laptop, it makes sense.
 
USMC_Trev said:
You say that now, but Cliff and Co. will come up with something even mo better and you're gonna GAS for it just like the rest of us.

It won't be a plug-in, because PC's and Macs share too much in the way of processing power and memory with all the other tasks involved with just being a computer that they won't do what Fractal needs them to do. If they could have they would have years ago.
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Oh my no. The memory and processing power, even with other things going on in a PC, far outstrips the memory and cpu capability of the DSP systems you find in standalone modelers. The choice to not deploy their software as a plugin is driven by:
  • The standalone form factor appeals to notoriously computer-phobic guitarists.
  • The standalone form factor permits integrated controls.
  • Independence from the whims of the desktop OS and PC manufacturer.
  • Piracy concerns.
 
GlennO said:
Oh my no. The memory and processing power, even with other things going on in a PC, far outstrips the memory and cpu capability of the DSP systems you find in standalone modelers.
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This is true. Even phones have vastly more GFLOPs than modelers today. They are just optimized for different things. PCs and phones evolved in a world where a few ms of extra latency are OK, so you can just run larger buffers and call it a day. Bare metal DSPs are designed for real-time low latency workloads.

That said I do think it would not be that difficult to create an AxeFX plugin. But that would likely murder hardware sales once someone in Eastern Europe removes the iLok protection and puts it on pirate bay. Which would most likely happen within 24 hours of it getting released.
 
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GlennO said:
Oh my no. The memory and processing power, even with other things going on in a PC, far outstrips the memory and cpu capability of the DSP systems you find in standalone modelers. The choice to not deploy their software as a plugin is driven by:
  • The standalone form factor appeals to notoriously computer-phobic guitarists.
  • The standalone form factor permits integrated controls.
  • Independence from the whims of the desktop OS and PC manufacturer.
  • Piracy concerns.
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1 - At this point, computer-phobic guitarists are aging out of the prime focus demographic, so that's not really a good argument.

2 - True - integrated controls will never die. I'd even go so far as to say that if things were to go to the plug-in side, developing and marketing I/O+controls boxes as dongles will be a thing which I'm good with if they are well-designed, modular/expandable and plug & play.

3 - Always important because Eff Micro$oft - MAC NATION

4 - Who doesn't hate iLok?

4 with a bullet - It's been my understanding that desktop and laptop CPU's are not good at DSP operations. Otherwise why would Fractal et al still be using SHARC DSP chips to bring in signal, run the algorithms, and send out processed audio? Why go through the hassle and cost to find and use these chips? They are getting harder to find and there was conversation a while back when the FM3 was first being talked about that one of the prime popular DSP chips was being discontinued. That's an issue.
 
USMC_Trev said:
It's been my understanding that desktop and laptop CPU's are not good at DSP operations. Otherwise why would Fractal et al still be using SHARC DSP chips to bring in signal, run the algorithms, and send out processed audio? Why go through the hassle and cost to find and use these chips? They are getting harder to find and there was conversation a while back when the FM3 was first being talked about that one of the prime popular DSP chips was being discontinued. That's an issue.
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Desktop CPU's are quite good at DSP operations. Fractal et al use DSP processors not because of superior performance, but for other reasons. For example, they tend to have much longer life cycles. You can't design a standalone modeling device around a desktop CPU that will be out of production in 18 months. However, you can count on a processor like a SHARC being in production for years.
 
Imagine starting your computer at the time you want to start your gig, or worse : when closing it by 3 am when you want to drive home...

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I understand the OPs viewpoint. I could have inserted ”tube amp” into the title and posted it when I started using the Ultra. Turned out the last tube amp I bought before the Ultra, or the Ultra itself, wasn’t the last in my long line of gear purchases... all the way to the Axe Fx III.

I like amps. Playing through one is different. Better? Well, that’s each person’s opinion. It’s just different to me, and I enjoy it as much as I do the Axe Fx, and vice versa.

In my very personal opinion, higher tech isn’t the panacea it appears to be, or is advertised to be. It’s a road, and a good one, but not the only good one. I want all the roads available. No one solution is ever going to do that, but I can see it might work just fine for some, and that’s good by me.
 
Computers are pretty solid these days.....

saying you wouldn’t use a computer live because it could crash is like saying you only will record on half inch tape because you don’t trust a DAW not to crash and ruin a take.

hundreds of thousands of people are using a DAW day in, day out, recording everything from major artists to home hobbyist.

likewise there are tons of artists playing live shows using laptops. Near every DJ I see these days uses a laptop, from the stages of Ibiza to the wedding firehall down the street.

likewise, tons of pro sound and lighting rigs are running laptops, as are all the visuals for major stadium tours.

I personally prefer working with hardware because I like hardware, but I wouldn’t imagine it to be any more reliable. Heck, if I was doing more live synth stuff I’d totally trust vst emulations more than I would taking some of my older analog synths to a gig. Sounds essentially the same too.
 
I agree but sometimes we forget or the pc will install updates that were downloaded previously. Anyway..
 
I once had a gig where the drummer's laptop containing the backing tracks had to be restarted right at our qualifying gig for the local battle of the bands. Because apparently mr. Genius Drummer had not turned it off but kept using it on and off using only sleep mode for over a month. Suffice to say we didn't qualify. And the band didn't survive for long after that.

lqdsnddist said:
Computers are pretty solid these days.....

saying you wouldn’t use a computer live because it could crash is like saying you only will record on half inch tape because you don’t trust a DAW not to crash and ruin a take.

hundreds of thousands of people are using a DAW day in, day out, recording everything from major artists to home hobbyist.
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I think that analogy is faulty, because there's a difference between hauling a laptop across the entire world, into bags, out of bags, potentially getting dropped and stuff (which has happened to me because I have butter fingers) vs. having a dedicated work station that permanently sits in a well maintained and air conditioned studio. Not that I believe that air conditioning is crucial in any way, but a laptop experiences a lot more stress and wear and tear then a stationary desktop. And that's why they usually don't last as long as desktops. I have like four broken ones at home. Of course, if reliability was my ultimate concern I could get you could take with you into a barfight, beat the crap out of people and still download my favorite porn afterwards.

lqdsnddist said:
likewise there are tons of artists playing live shows using laptops. Near every DJ I see these days uses a laptop, from the stages of Ibiza to the wedding firehall down the street.
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Except DJ's could use their smartphone or even iPod if they wanted to. Pressing play on a playlist ain't that hard of a job. I'm sure there is a talent in selecting and playing the right music at the right moment, but the biggest trick they pulled on everyone is making us think they were actual musicians.

lqdsnddist said:
likewise, tons of pro sound and lighting rigs are running laptops, as are all the visuals for major stadium tours.

I personally prefer working with hardware because I like hardware, but I wouldn’t imagine it to be any more reliable. Heck, if I was doing more live synth stuff I’d totally trust vst emulations more than I would taking some of my older analog synths to a gig. Sounds essentially the same too.
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Yeah, but I am not a light tech running his light program, nor am I a synth guy. I'm a 52 year old guitarist and if that makes me an old fart so be it, old fart and proud of it, but I want a real dedicated unit behind me that I don't have to make sure doesn't restart mid gig cause upgrades, doesn't do the blue screen of death mid gig because it got bounced around too much, nor run the risk that the apps I use are no longer considered political correct and must therefore be purged like Apple now does.
 
Admin M@ said:
Rush did, on the last tour. MainStage with plugins for some stuff.
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Digital Performer used to be the DAW of choice on stage, and I think it still might be among the top acts, but I do see a lot of Logic and Mainstage lately. But, yeah, almost all touring acts now, large and small, use computers on stage.

One trend that I notice is towards a clean stage. Not only no amps on stage, but also a minimum of pedals. Sometimes just a tuner. For that kind of stage, an AxeFX offstage, controlled by a DAW to do preset/scene switching in addition to click tracks is the way to go. It's not going to work with a highly improvised show like Govt Mule, but that kind of set up is widely used by a lot of acts these days.
 
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GlennO said:
Digital Performer used to be the DAW of choice on stage, and I think it still might be among the top acts, but I do see a lot of Logic and Mainstage lately. But, yeah, almost all touring acts now, large and small, use computers on stage.

One trend that I notice is towards a clean stage. Not only no amps on stage, but also a minimum of pedals. Sometimes just a tuner. For that kind of stage, an AxeFX offstage, controlled by a DAW to do preset/scene switching in addition to click tracks is the way to go. It's not going to work with a highly improvised show like Govt Mule, but that kind of set up is widely used by a lot of acts these days.
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Well I have yet to see a Guitar rig rundown vid that had laptops be the guitarists main rig. And I thought the Axe FX rig rundowns were boring already.

The trend towards a clean stage, that I do see. When you use in-ears and your whole stage show is choreographed from start to finish to have you move about the place, catwalks, B-stage, there really is no need anymore for a big stack of amps on stage for stage volume. Nor wedges. Effects rack can go downstairs to the guitar tech as well. It does make for boring shows though. Watching the guitar player interact with his gear and seeing how he does his pedal trickery was one of my favorite passtimes during shows. Having them tramps around on a clean stage is boring because you every move they make has been rehearsed and nailed down to the second so he's on spot X for the automated lightshow to work and he has to hit his parts to the T or else his guitar tech switching his effects, or worse, the laptop automation will switch over his presets at the wrong moment. All the spontaneity and that elusive live moment feel gets sucked out of liveshows. Just like aligning everything to a grid during recording in a DAW sucks the humanity out of recordings as well. And the less said about autotune the better. Yeah, I'm a boring old fart alright, who remembers guys like Jeff Healey coming back for 5 encores because the crowd kept demanding for more.
 
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Bottom line...show me a software plugin that competes. That's a rhetorical statement. There aren't any. A contender would require another Cliff who dedicated his life to the pursuit, and would have to deal with additional problems of the platform. IMO, any such person would be ill-advised to release his/her work as a plugin. Plugins will continue to be just good enough to make a buck for quite a while.
 
Budda said:
Spontaneity can be planned...
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No it can't. Because then its no longer spontaneous. That has to happen in the heat of the moment. You can create an awesome show though, plan awesome moments at appropriate times. And when you see such a show once it will be awesome as f***. I've argued for this myself. Not everyone can be spontaneous on stage. But you can plan things. Be on spot X at time Y so awesome looking moment Z can happen. For a starting band that needs to develop consistency and build up experience and routine I think its a must. Cause that magical moment won't happen when half of the time you're struggling to just play your set. For the massive bands in the big stadiums with the big lightshows its a must too, otherwise its hard to do the big lightshows. For a casual audience member this will be enough. Go more then once though and you notice that you can time the show based on the movements of the musicians and you realize, it's all planned from start to finish.
 
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