The IRS needs Gibsons money to pay off the debt! LOL.

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After Two Raids, DOJ Decides No Criminal Charges Against Gibson Guitar Company | CNS News[/QUOTE]


No offence but I looked that site over - it's some sort of extreme right-wing, anti-government conspiracy site. Not exactly a reliable source of information.

I'm not American, but from what I can tell, Gibson broke the law and deserved it's punishment. They got a pretty mild fine and everyone is moving on.

EDIT - this discussion is turning a bit political so I'm out.
 
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I heard from someone who worked there that there was high up knowledge that they were breaking the law, and that other laws were being broken that were not targeted by the crackdown.
 


No offence but I looked that site over - it's some sort of extreme right-wing, anti-government conspiracy site. Not exactly a reliable source of information.

I'm not American, but from what I can tell, Gibson broke the law and deserved it's punishment. They got a pretty mild fine and everyone is moving on.

EDIT - this discussion is turning a bit political so I'm out.[/QUOTE]

No, no they didn't break "the law", and that's why they weren't prosecuted.
Facts can be inconvenient for some who don't like the source of those facts. If that's the case for you, reference another site that you've decided to trust or another source of information that is unbiased in your "opinion".

They weren't prosecuted because the law enforcement apparatus of Our Country couldn't prove a case against them.

Period.
 
The facts are easily verified by anyone who chooses to review them independently. It's all a matter of public record. If you choose to believe a site like the one you cited, that's your choice. I personally prefer things with less tinfoil.

Anyway, let's keep discussions on this site about the music.
 
The facts are easily verified by anyone who chooses to review them independently. It's all a matter of public record. If you choose to believe a site like the one you cited, that's your choice. I personally prefer things with less tinfoil.

Anyway, let's keep discussions on this site about the music.



The "fact" is, Gibson didn't break any laws... and are not Guilty of any crime - regardless which news outlet (and there are many with opposing political slants) reports the story. The Government of the United States has conceded this by deciding NOT to prosecute them.
 
Yes, be a good litle sheep.

Alway's believe everything that is fed to you by the main stream media.

Never question politics, they get their election money from their own savings account....:lol
 
No, no they didn't break "the law", and that's why they weren't prosecuted.
Facts can be inconvenient for some who don't like the source of those facts. If that's the case for you, reference another site that you've decided to trust or another source of information that is unbiased in your "opinion".

They weren't prosecuted because the law enforcement apparatus of Our Country couldn't prove a case against them.

Period.

Lololololololol. So they didn't break the law and that's why they weren't prosecuted? Or they weren't prosecuted because the "apparatus of Our Country" couldn't prove they broke the law? Which one is it?
 
Even that right wing site article says quite clearly that Gibson agreed to settle because "Gibson admitted that it had failed to ensure that the exotic wood it was purchasing from its supplier had been legally harvested and exported."

Gibson claims they were "inappropriately targeted". But they don't claim they were innocent. That's why they agreed to pay the fine.
 
The facts are easily verified by anyone who chooses to review them independently. It's all a matter of public record. If you choose to believe a site like the one you cited, that's your choice. I personally prefer things with less tinfoil.

Anyway, let's keep discussions on this site about the music.

Well, Manning, since the basis of this thread is obviously deeply rooted in politics (current IRS scandal) and the treatment of Gibson Guitars (musical instruments that have relevance on pretty much any guitar-oriented forum), it's kind of hard to stay on topic without examining both the legal and political angles at play here. As long as we keep it civil, no harm, ok?

Instead, I'll cite the NY Times for you:

A Closer Look at Gibson Guitar's Legal Troubles - NYTimes.com

And here is Gibson's own response to the settlement:

Gibson Guitar: Gibson Comments on Department of Justice Settlement

Now I'm all for clarity, and if Gibson knowingly screwed up, then bad on THEM (I've stated this before when the topic came up on the forum a long time ago). According to the NYTimes story, Gibson appears to have recognized their "mea culpa" with respect to the shipments from Madagascar, paid the fines and forfeited the ill-gotten wood (as a result of the first raid). Fair enough.

As for the second raid with respect to imports from INDIA, this is less clear, and the feds appear to have admitted that they may have been a bit hyper-vigilant in pursuing Gibson:

The Criminal Enforcement Agreement also reveals that the government might have exercised more discretion in its 2011 enforcement effort. Though Gibson’s use in 2011 of the same German wood supplier that provided it with the 2009 seized shipment and irregularities in the shipping paperwork might have justified the government’s suspicions, the illegality (or legality) of the 2011 shipment was far from obvious.

Now, as a personal take on all of this, it is up to Gibson to know the applicable laws and comply, like it or not. They get caught, their problem and so be it - time to pay the piper. OTOH, I disagree that military style armed raids were necessary and a wise use of tax resources (I can only imagine how much this cost the taxpayer). Were the feds really expecting a shootout at the OK corral from one of the most prestigious guitar companies on the planet, and over some pallets of imported wood? Extreme, unnecessary, wasteful and all for "show" IMO.

[short soapbox bloviating rant]

My broader point is this: where are these effective watchdog agencies when we really need them? Those charged with keeping an eye on Wall Street were evidently asleep at the switch prior to the financial meltdown of 2008. Did anyone's head roll for this massive lack of oversight? Nope? Incompetence all around, yet the very government agencies that are there to protect us from such gigantic mishaps missed the boat completely, even when they were warned. I'm sorry, but I've grown very wary of the motives of some of these all-powerful government agencies. Living in Massachusetts, I've seen year after year the corruption, abuse of power and wastefulness at their hands. Even when they are caught red handed, it is brushed under the rug, no big deal, nothing to see here.

So, apologies for being so cynical. Until you see firsthand what can happen to individuals and small businesses at the hands of over-eager bureaucrats, you may not sympathize. As we're seeing with the IRS scandals, there ARE times when the general public needs to be protected FROM the powers that be...and then, where do you turn?
 
Yes, be a good litle sheep.

Alway's believe everything that is fed to you by the main stream media.

Never question politics, they get their election money from their own savings account....:lol

OK, you are seriously crossing the line on civility here.

I am not an American, for a start. Please remember this is an international forum, not an American one.
 
OK, you are seriously crossing the line on civility here.

I am not an American, for a start. Please remember this is an international forum, not an American one.

Manning, I'm not sure I see how Mark's Tone said anything terribly offensive, directed at nobody in particular. Certainly it is a very sharp commentary, but quite different than calling out someone, or a specific group of people as being, for example, "stupid" or something like that. I'd like to think that people have just a few layers of thickness left in their skin.

I get his point, though. Without reliable media sources to challenge the majority of mainstream news outlets, we are usually left with only part of the story. And if you are only willing to listen to one side of a story, then you are not fully informed. Evidently, gone are the days of Woodward and Bernstein, who, as journalists, tirelessly chased down the leads (no matter how flimsy they appeared to be) that eventually forced a president to resign (Watergate, Nixon).

Many "journalists" today seem to have no desire whatsoever to question the talking points of ANY politician, even when there is more than just a mild appearance of impropriety, simply because that politician has a worldview that they agree with. It's known as "advocacy journalism", and it throws out fact and objective evaluation in favor of pushing an agenda, or to drive an outcome of opinion. So, people may call out these other "alternate" news sources as being "crackpot right-wing extremists with an axe to grind", but without them, we would virtually have no contrary points of view to what many see as a large, well orchestrated liberal propaganda machine. I understand this viewpoint. The high ratings of Fox News Channel (like them or not) would also seem to point to this being the case.

One may not like the opposing contrary point of view, but IMO, any fair-minded person must be honest enough to admit that, at least on an intellectual basis and when it comes to politics, the opposing viewpoint is worth hearing, and deserves its place at the table of open discussion and freedom of speech. I hope we can agree on that.
 
Well, Manning, since the basis of this thread is obviously deeply rooted in politics (current IRS scandal) and the treatment of Gibson Guitars (musical instruments that have relevance on pretty much any guitar-oriented forum), it's kind of hard to stay on topic without examining both the legal and political angles at play here. As long as we keep it civil, no harm, ok?

Instead, I'll cite the NY Times for you:

A Closer Look at Gibson Guitar's Legal Troubles - NYTimes.com

And here is Gibson's own response to the settlement:

Gibson Guitar: Gibson Comments on Department of Justice Settlement

Now I'm all for clarity, and if Gibson knowingly screwed up, then bad on THEM (I've stated this before when the topic came up on the forum a long time ago). According to the NYTimes story, Gibson appears to have recognized their "mea culpa" with respect to the shipments from Madagascar, paid the fines and forfeited the ill-gotten wood (as a result of the first raid). Fair enough.

As for the second raid with respect to imports from INDIA, this is less clear, and the feds appear to have admitted that they may have been a bit hyper-vigilant in pursuing Gibson:



Now, as a personal take on all of this, it is up to Gibson to know the applicable laws and comply, like it or not. They get caught, their problem and so be it - time to pay the piper. OTOH, I disagree that military style armed raids were necessary and a wise use of tax resources (I can only imagine how much this cost the taxpayer). Were the feds really expecting a shootout at the OK corral from one of the most prestigious guitar companies on the planet, and over some pallets of imported wood? Extreme, unnecessary, wasteful and all for "show" IMO.

[short soapbox bloviating rant]

My broader point is this: where are these effective watchdog agencies when we really need them? Those charged with keeping an eye on Wall Street were evidently asleep at the switch prior to the financial meltdown of 2008. Did anyone's head roll for this massive lack of oversight? Nope? Incompetence all around, yet the very government agencies that are there to protect us from such gigantic mishaps missed the boat completely, even when they were warned. I'm sorry, but I've grown very wary of the motives of some of these all-powerful government agencies. Living in Massachusetts, I've seen year after year the corruption, abuse of power and wastefulness at their hands. Even when they are caught red handed, it is brushed under the rug, no big deal, nothing to see here.

So, apologies for being so cynical. Until you see firsthand what can happen to individuals and small businesses at the hands of over-eager bureaucrats, you may not sympathize. As we're seeing with the IRS scandals, there ARE times when the general public needs to be protected FROM the powers that be...and then, where do you turn?

Thank you Jim... This is what it is all about and could not have posted it better
 
OK, you are seriously crossing the line on civility here.

I am not an American, for a start. Please remember this is an international forum, not an American one.

Why are you in this thread? This is an American issue. I AM AN AMERICAN ..

This is about an AMERICAN company, And OUR tax collection enforecment agency.

Tisk Tisk

Quite frankly, I am offended by your comments.
The comment was not directed at you, I have you on ignore......

But I think its quite ammusing you took it personal..:lol
 
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