The infamous "amp in the room" vs FRFR discussion

EHX Magnum 44 = 150 USD

Cool, didn't know that existed. Just need an FRFR version (that also doesn't clip) to use with the Axe. Maybe also a stereo/dual 88W amp pedal. I think with Class D this very doable, maybe with even more power.
 
What is the verdict on the Ehx Magnum 44? Does it colour the sound much, or do you mostly keep the sound from the power amp sim from the axe?
 
I think I disagree with almost everything in this post. IR and cab block has been improved so much in the last 2 years that the mythical 'amp in the room' is a non-issue...if you know what you're doing (but that's the rub, isn't it?)

I'm not a pro, but I respectfully disagree. I've been a lot of hours into this. I recently recorded three clips:
1- Axe with carefully chosen IRs (using amp, cab, reverb and headphones)
2- Axe with power amp and cab (not FRFR) recorded with i-Phone mic a few feet away from cab in a small room/office.
3- Axe with power amp and cab (not FRFR) recored with a high quality mic next to cab in a custom made, insulated cab box (all walls with sound absorbing foam) to remove all reflections.

Here is #1:


Here is #2:


I'll look for my #3 clip or record it again.

Keep in mind #1 may sound "better" but it uses the Ambient Stereo delay to get a more full sound. This is how I compensate to get a "cab in room" tone. #2 does not use the Ambient Stereo, but a digital modulated (2290) version with the same delay settings. I didn't want to use a stereo effect in the #2 set up because it doesn't sound right coming through a real cab. So #1 has a layer of "studio" spacial effect that is not in #2. Yet you can hear what I describe as "crispness" in #2. There is something about the power of a moving cab in a room that has yet to be captured by the Axe in my humble opinion. And BTW #2 was recorded with an iPhone which is obviously not a professional mic, and you can still hear the "in the room" effect we are all talking about.

The best sounding clip to my ears is #2. Second best was #1 and I didn't like #3 at all (would have to add effects and EQ to this). Cliff's quote above is right on the mark - the cab is sharper with more highs when recorded up close.

If I stand in my room and play with power amp and cab, the sound is just fantastic. There is this crisp, bold, clear tone that I can never get on headphones with the amp/cab modeling. You can feel the sensitivity of hitting the pick to the strings. Don't get me wrong, the Axe modeling sounds fantastic, but it's not that "cab in the room" experience. I've tried so may different IRs and settings and it's always the same result. Reverb helps, but there is some sort of crispness and spacial tone that is missing. I've even watched others' tutorials and tried their settings for "amp in the room" tone and none worked for me.

If this exists, please post a preset of what works, as I would love to see what the settings to get the in room feel.
 
I'm not a pro, but I respectfully disagree. I've been a lot of hours into this. I recently recorded three clips:
1- Axe with carefully chosen IRs (using amp, cab, reverb and headphones)
2- Axe with power amp and cab (not FRFR) recorded with i-Phone mic a few feet away from cab in a small room/office.
3- Axe with power amp and cab (not FRFR) recored with a high quality mic next to cab in a custom made, insulated cab box (all walls with sound absorbing foam) to remove all reflections.

Here is #1:


Here is #2:


I'll look for my #3 clip or record it again.

Keep in mind #1 may sound "better" but it uses the Ambient Stereo delay to get a more full sound. This is how I compensate to get a "cab in room" tone. #2 does not use the Ambient Stereo, but a digital modulated (2290) version with the same delay settings. I didn't want to use a stereo effect in the #2 set up because it doesn't sound right coming through a real cab. So #1 has a layer of "studio" spacial effect that is not in #2. Yet you can hear what I describe as "crispness" in #2. There is something about the power of a moving cab in a room that has yet to be captured by the Axe in my humble opinion. And BTW #2 was recorded with an iPhone which is obviously not a professional mic, and you can still hear the "in the room" effect we are all talking about.

The best sounding clip to my ears is #2. Second best was #1 and I didn't like #3 at all (would have to add effects and EQ to this). Cliff's quote above is right on the mark - the cab is sharper with more highs when recorded up close.

If I stand in my room and play with power amp and cab, the sound is just fantastic. There is this crisp, bold, clear tone that I can never get on headphones with the amp/cab modeling. You can feel the sensitivity of hitting the pick to the strings. Don't get me wrong, the Axe modeling sounds fantastic, but it's not that "cab in the room" experience. I've tried so may different IRs and settings and it's always the same result. Reverb helps, but there is some sort of crispness and spacial tone that is missing. I've even watched others' tutorials and tried their settings for "amp in the room" tone and none worked for me.

If this exists, please post a preset of what works, as I would love to see what the settings to get the in room feel.


Personally, I think your first clip blows away clip #2, however if you really want to reproduce the sound of an iPhone recording of an amp a few feet away from the cab, you can do it in the Axe. I reamped your first clip and used a Mixer block to convert the signal to mono, then added a Cab block and used Cab #460(Factory 2). I tweaked the Room/Air settings and used a few PEQ's in parallel to shape the tone a bit. I followed it up by adding a Reverb block set to Recording Studio C at the end of the parallel chain. At the end of the entire chain I used a Tone Match block. However, it's worth noting that the TM Block is guitar / pickup dependent so it obviously won't sound the same with different guitars / pickups.

Sample:

Original Clip #2:
 
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I'm not a pro, but I respectfully disagree. I've been a lot of hours into this. I recently recorded three clips:
1- Axe with carefully chosen IRs (using amp, cab, reverb and headphones)
2- Axe with power amp and cab (not FRFR) recorded with i-Phone mic a few feet away from cab in a small room/office.
3- Axe with power amp and cab (not FRFR) recored with a high quality mic next to cab in a custom made, insulated cab box (all walls with sound absorbing foam) to remove all reflections.

Here is #1:


Here is #2:


I'll look for my #3 clip or record it again.

Keep in mind #1 may sound "better" but it uses the Ambient Stereo delay to get a more full sound. This is how I compensate to get a "cab in room" tone. #2 does not use the Ambient Stereo, but a digital modulated (2290) version with the same delay settings. I didn't want to use a stereo effect in the #2 set up because it doesn't sound right coming through a real cab. So #1 has a layer of "studio" spacial effect that is not in #2. Yet you can hear what I describe as "crispness" in #2. There is something about the power of a moving cab in a room that has yet to be captured by the Axe in my humble opinion. And BTW #2 was recorded with an iPhone which is obviously not a professional mic, and you can still hear the "in the room" effect we are all talking about.

The best sounding clip to my ears is #2. Second best was #1 and I didn't like #3 at all (would have to add effects and EQ to this). Cliff's quote above is right on the mark - the cab is sharper with more highs when recorded up close.

If I stand in my room and play with power amp and cab, the sound is just fantastic. There is this crisp, bold, clear tone that I can never get on headphones with the amp/cab modeling. You can feel the sensitivity of hitting the pick to the strings. Don't get me wrong, the Axe modeling sounds fantastic, but it's not that "cab in the room" experience. I've tried so may different IRs and settings and it's always the same result. Reverb helps, but there is some sort of crispness and spacial tone that is missing. I've even watched others' tutorials and tried their settings for "amp in the room" tone and none worked for me.

If this exists, please post a preset of what works, as I would love to see what the settings to get the in room feel.

I definitely prefer clip 1.

When we choose IRs, a common choice is the mic on the Cone vs the mic on the Edge. Cone has a lot of highs, Edge has less high more lows.

With 1 IR, we have to choose. When we listen to a real cab in a room, we hear BOTH and many more “positions” all at the same time. I think this simple point is why hearing a real cab sounds “better” to many people, especially compared directly to IR/modeling.

To me, the 1st clip is only lacking some treble compared to the 2nd clip. I wonder if you blend in a 2nd IR of a cab with the mic on the cone - usually too bright on its own, but added in as needed I bet you get at least the EQ/tone closer.

We’ve been listening to recorded guitar amps for a very long time now, and people even base their tone on recordings, not live performances from that same band. Those recordings use.... one or more mics on single points on a speaker up close. It’s the same thing. They just blend multiple mics for different tone controls, as well as use layers of guitars to get what they need.

It sounds full, and sounds “like an amp.” We can do the same things but we have to do the same things. Mixing IRs for tone is a good place to start perhaps. Then turn up and let your sound bounce off the room you’re in.

Great tone either way.
 
Personally, I think your first clip blows away clip #2, however if you really want to reproduce the sound of an iPhone recording of an amp a few feet away from the cab, you can do it in the Axe. I reamped your first clip and used a Mixer block to convert the signal to mono, then added a Cab block and used Cab #460(Factory 2). I tweaked the Room/Air settings and used a few PEQ's in parallel to shape the tone a bit. I followed it up by adding a Reverb block set to Recording Studio C at the end of the parallel chain. At the end of the entire chain I used a Tone Match block. However, it's worth noting that the TM Block is guitar / pickup dependent so it obviously won't sound the same with different guitars / pickups.

Sample:

Original Clip #2:

Jason, wow, that's impressive. Yes, I agree the first clip is much better, and thx for the kind words. I was just trying to illustrate what I think was missing. I obviously don't have your level of experience with sound mixing and the Axe. I can't thank you enough. You obviously put a lot of work into this. How did you use the TM block here? I've always had trouble getting that to work, so I'm doing something wrong. I prefer to try to get the "in room tone" without tone matching. Can you share the preset? I'm happy to post my preset for #1 and you can tweek it directly if you like.
 
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Zenaxe, wow, that's impressive. Yes, I agree the first clip is much better, and thx for the kind words. I was just trying to illustrate what I think was missing. I obviously don't have your level of experience with sound mixing and the Axe. I can't thank you enough. You obviously put a lot of work into this. How did you use the TM block here? I've always had trouble getting that to work, so I'm doing something wrong. I prefer to try to get the "in room tone" without tone matching. Can you share the preset? I'm happy to post my preset for #1 and you can tweek it directly if you like.

I just looked and thought sure I saved that preset, but apparently I didn't, which in retrospect is undoubtedly due to updating the firmware to 4.00 Beta and resetting the unit.

With respect to the TM block, I generally bypass the Cab block, and when playing the Local signal, I bypass the TM block itself.
 
I just looked and thought sure I saved that preset, but apparently I didn't, which in retrospect is undoubtedly due to updating the firmware to 4.00 Beta and resetting the unit.

With respect to the TM block, I generally bypass the Cab block, and when playing the Local signal, I bypass the TM block itself.

No worries, thx. Can you describe the set up in more detail? I didn't understand the PEQ in parallel.

Here is how I interpreted your set up:
1 - You played the clip into a mixer block to convert the signal to mono (which I obviously don't need if I'm going to update my original preset)
2 - You sent the mono signal into a Cab block (#460 - Factory 2) and adjusted the Room/Air settings for this block. [NOTE - so the end result here is two cab blocks because I used one in my original clip.] In other words you used the cab block as another EQ.
3 - You used a few PEQ's in parallel [TO THE CAB BLOCK?] to shape the tone (so the signal went into the cab above and also into a PEQ in parallel?]. Q: Do you mean multiple PEQ blocks, or you used one block and adjusted certain frequencies? Do you remember which frequencies you enhanced and by how much?
4 - You added a Reverb block set to Recording Studio C at the end of the parallel chain. Q: So both the signal from the cab and the PEQ (or multiple PEQs went into the reverb block, right?
5 - At the end of the entire chain you used a Tone Match block.

Thx!
 
All I know is, in my experience, it doesn't matter if I record with amp & pedals, or Fractal, or plugin. During the mix, most of my guitar tracks get processed, EQ'd and edited regardless 99% of the time. So many times you hear a great guitar tone in a song, and when you solo it, all of a sudden it's got no bottom end, or it's very mid-focused. I feel like a lot of the low-end of a guitar tone that we think we hear, isn't actually coming from the tone we think we hear it in, but instead, from the bass, or another guitar in a similar register.

Check out the Tim Pierce & Rick Beato video... at one point Tim Pierce talks about how he feels like he wants to add low end and body to his tone, but then Chris Lord Alge will take his tracks and cut all the bottom-end out every single time.
 
No worries, thx. Can you describe the set up in more detail? I didn't understand the PEQ in parallel.

Here is how I interpreted your set up:
1 - You played the clip into a mixer block to convert the signal to mono (which I obviously don't need if I'm going to update my original preset)
2 - You sent the mono signal into a Cab block (#460 - Factory 2) and adjusted the Room/Air settings for this block. [NOTE - so the end result here is two cab blocks because I used one in my original clip.] In other words you used the cab block as another EQ.
3 - You used a few PEQ's in parallel [TO THE CAB BLOCK?] to shape the tone (so the signal went into the cab above and also into a PEQ in parallel?]. Q: Do you mean multiple PEQ blocks, or you used one block and adjusted certain frequencies? Do you remember which frequencies you enhanced and by how much?
4 - You added a Reverb block set to Recording Studio C at the end of the parallel chain. Q: So both the signal from the cab and the PEQ (or multiple PEQs went into the reverb block, right?
5 - At the end of the entire chain you used a Tone Match block.

Thx!

Here's a quick mock-up of the signal chain from memory:

Signal Chain.jpg

The purpose of the cab on the upper path was simply to incorporate a room IR in order to introduce some actual room ambiance, while the lower path was used to shape the original signal and add just a touch of verb for ambiance. The volume block on the lower path was used to allow me to mix the two paths. I don't remember the exact ratio but I vaguely remember cutting a few dB from the bottom row using the Volume block. From memory, I believe I used every, single band from the first two PEQ's and probably one or two from the third PEQ to shape the tone in order to make it sound as close as possible to clip #2, however I'd be lying if I said I remembered which frequencies I cut / boosted and to what degree.

So, just to recap:

1) You don't need the Mixer block
2) Yes, I tweaked the Room/Air settings
4) Only the PEQ was affected by the Reverb block
5) Correct
 
I just looked and thought sure I saved that preset, but apparently I didn't, which in retrospect is undoubtedly due to updating the firmware to 4.00 Beta and resetting the unit.

With respect to the TM block, I generally bypass the Cab block, and when playing the Local signal, I bypass the TM block itself.

You helped me in a huge way, thank you! I just added a second "room" cab similar to the one you used, and also added another reverb (so one long and one short time reverb) and it already sounds better, even without the TM block. I'm still interested in your thoughts to my questions above, but thx again!
 
You helped me in a huge way, thank you! I just added a second "room" cab similar to the one you used, and also added another reverb (so one long and one short time reverb) and it already sounds better, even without the TM block. I'm still interested in your thoughts to my questions above, but thx again!

Awesome, glad to help.
 
I also think that the clip#1 blows away the clip#2
But I understand what Michael want to say.

clip#1 is a "High fidelity" clip. It is per definition what we can have in a CD album, or say what the Edge would have put on a release track.
It is the result of a real amp captured with a mic , simulated with the Axe FX II, and as always with Michael it sounds just awesome.
This is the definition of how the Axe FX works.

But it is Not what The Edge (Michael) could have personally hear during the recording in a room with a real AC30, which could have been finally rendered on CD after capture with a mic.

We all love the clip#1, because it is what we want as final recorded tone on a CD.
But real guitarist in real room prefers generally the sound of a big good old guitar cab speaker pushing air into the room (not FRFR etc..., but a guitar cab speaker).
A guitarist in a room DOESN'T directly hear the final sound of the CD.
This is the "amp in the room", difficult/impossible to render on FRFR/Headphones.

Thanks to jason for his work on this.
I will try to understand and learn something out of that !
 
Oh it can be done. All you need is a box that changes size. Speaker that changes size. Speaker cones that change material. Speaker magnets that change weight. That would be a good start. Oh and speakers that change the amount of speakers.

That triggered something in my mind. What about beamforming? Maybe that requires a dedicated hardware packing an array of speakers, but (from what I remember) in theory it should be possible, at least to replicate some form of "far field" response. How far could it be used to replicate frequency features and character and not just directionally? I don't know. I see in mathworks.com an article called "Making all the right noises: shaping sound with audio beamforming", by Phillips research, in which they explain how to use this technology to shape directionality of speakers (cannot post the link due to being a novice user).

...plus, in my understanding, this technique is widely employed in sonar devices, and maybe that's good news becase I think that's an area where Cliff has a worked before... :D
 
Personally, I think your first clip blows away clip #2, however if you really want to reproduce the sound of an iPhone recording of an amp a few feet away from the cab, you can do it in the Axe. I reamped your first clip and used a Mixer block to convert the signal to mono, then added a Cab block and used Cab #460(Factory 2). I tweaked the Room/Air settings and used a few PEQ's in parallel to shape the tone a bit. I followed it up by adding a Reverb block set to Recording Studio C at the end of the parallel chain. At the end of the entire chain I used a Tone Match block. However, it's worth noting that the TM Block is guitar / pickup dependent so it obviously won't sound the same with different guitars / pickups.

Sample:

Original Clip #2:

BTW, what type of media links did you use above? What is suddenlink? Cool embedded format where you can download the clip right from this page.
 
BTW, what type of media links did you use above? What is suddenlink? Cool embedded format where you can download the clip right from this page.

I think that's just the embedded app incorporated into the website. It appears if you use the Media tags in your post to link to an MP3 offsite.
 
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