The 12MA impression after a few weeks use & the Atomic FRFR

[GuitarDojo]

I see your not that impressed with the Verve12ma either.

"Either" meaning you're not impressed with the 12ma too? I know you have (at least) one and I haven't been hearing much raving from you about it.

Not that Impressed. I guess I was expecting the Holy Grail of monitors. Expectations were too high!
What happens around here is; a review of a product that creates a rush for the product, then another raving review of a new "not necessarily better" product comes along and people dump what was already a good monitor for the next new hot thang. It changes like diapers round here. Lets keep it simple. What works for me may not work for you, I play LOUD!! - Clean or Dirty! Bottom line has always been YMMV. ITs all subjective to the ears that interpret it.

12ma pinned next to a Yorkville NX25P i could not tell the difference. Then I used them both live. The Yorkie on my left and the FBT on my right. Dont get me wrong it sounded GREAT, but I could not tell you which sounded better. After A/B'ing it a few times in rehearsal and a few times live, I was debating on wether to keep the Verve12ma. Its small, light and sounds good but is it worth the trouble to get it here? Or the money? Nope!
My QSC's are part of my personal PA now, however as I grow I'm going the Yorkville route. The rest of the band thinks I am a diva cause I gotz to have 2 monitors of ME ME ME ME at my feet. My next plan set up is to have 2 Atomic FRs at the rear and 1 monitor (full mix- Yorkie) at my feet. Is it the next big wave, maybe not, but its the old school way that has ALWAYS worked for me and I always liked it. I need those cabs behind me. Especially a product that is tooled for the axe-fx. & Thats how I roll!!

 

[Sixstring]

I see your not that impressed with the Verve12ma either.

"Either" meaning you're not impressed with the 12ma too? I know you have (at least) one and I haven't been hearing much raving from you about it.

Not that Impressed. I guess I was expecting the Holy Grail of monitors. Expectations were too high!
What happens around here is; a review of a product that creates a rush for the product, then another raving review of a new "not necessarily better" product comes along and people dump what was already a good monitor for the next new hot thang. It changes like diapers round here. Lets keep it simple. What works for me may not work for you, I play LOUD!! - Clean or Dirty! Bottom line has always been YMMV. ITs all subjective to the ears that interpret it.

12ma pinned next to a Yorkville NX25P i could not tell the difference. Then I used them both live. The Yorkie on my left and the FBT on my right. Dont get me wrong it sounded GREAT, but I could not tell you which sounded better. After A/B'ing it a few times in rehearsal and a few times live, I was debating on wether to keep the Verve12ma. Its small, light and sounds good but is it worth the trouble to get it here? Or the money? Nope!
My QSC's are part of my personal PA now, however as I grow I'm going the Yorkville route. The rest of the band thinks I am a diva cause I gotz to have 2 monitors of ME ME ME ME at my feet. My next plan set up is to have 2 Atomic FRs at the rear and 1 monitor (full mix- Yorkie) at my feet. Is it the next big wave, maybe not, but its the old school way that has ALWAYS worked for me and I always liked it. I need those cabs behind me. Especially a product that is tooled for the axe-fx. & Thats how I roll!!

Wow... given the differences in specs and price between those two enclosures that's saying a lot about the Yorky. At twice the power (and cost) one would have thought the 12ma would have stomped the Yorkville in headroom alone.

With all the FRFR monitor comparisons lately and the diferent price ranges we are starting to see, for those that were suffering from GAS in the analog world. I could see where this could be a problem for thoes searching for "the Holy Grail of monitors".

 

[Ringleader]

What happens around here is; a review of a product that creates a rush for the product, then another raving review of a new "not necessarily better" product comes along and people dump what was already a good monitor for the next new hot thang. It changes like diapers round here. Lets keep it simple. What works for me may not work for you, I play LOUD!! - Clean or Dirty! Bottom line has always been YMMV. ITs all subjective to the ears that interpret it.

I agree. I blame Scott Peterson for all of it but YMMV. :lol: (just kidding Scott ) Here again, different strokes for different folks!

That was kind of my point with the Coda too in that other thread you referenced. Don't get me wrong I'm sure it really is a GREAT solution and probably much better than the solutions we've all been experimenting with. But what about when then next best "thing" comes along? I have a feeling trying to sell a single Coda and getting some money back out of it will be a real challenge.

Thanks for your honest review on the 12ma Dojo! I had a feeling you were thinking this way about it. :geek:

 

[Scott Peterson]

What happens around here is; a review of a product that creates a rush for the product, then another raving review of a new "not necessarily better" product comes along and people dump what was already a good monitor for the next new hot thang. It changes like diapers round here. Lets keep it simple. What works for me may not work for you, I play LOUD!! - Clean or Dirty! Bottom line has always been YMMV. ITs all subjective to the ears that interpret it.

I agree. I blame Scott Peterson for all of it but YMMV. :lol: (just kidding Scott ) Here again, different strokes for different folks!

That was kind of my point with the Coda too in that other thread you referenced. Don't get me wrong I'm sure it really is a GREAT solution and probably much better than the solutions we've all been experimenting with. But what about when then next best "thing" comes along? I have a feeling trying to sell a single Coda and getting some money back out of it will be a real challenge.

Thanks for your honest review on the 12ma Dojo! I had a feeling you were thinking this way about it. :geek:

FWIW, I've never auditioned nor used a 12ma, let alone posted any opinion of it. Just to keep the record straight. (Add the Coda to that list too, just to be complete!)

I just posted this on another thread and it applies here to, though in a different way.

What's interesting here is that the OP (of the other thread comparing 7 different FRFR setups) used a good distance (30' or 40') to judge those monitors.

IMHO, to me a 'monitor' is a 'nearfield' device. I have one at my feet or behind me, aimed at my head. That's a few feet at best. I have no interest whatsoever in judging monitors for absolute fidelity from 30' away, which to me is judging those speakers as FOH. Means nothing, TO ME, for this application (monitoring the Axe-FX on stage). To the OP (from the other thread), that's his way and it works for him. And that's fine.

Folks need to remember that we all don't approach things the same way. We all won't agree on 'the best' nor will we even agree on the 'best way' to use something as versatile as the Axe-FX. As I read the discussion in this thread, there is this underlying notion that we ALL must agree in someway.

There is no universal opinion. What works for one guy might just not work at all for the next guy.

If it is any surprise, really, that a monitor that costs 2X or more than the others it is being compared to sounds better to a given individual should be of no surprise whatsoever to anyone.

That one man's opinion, no matter who he 'is' (myself included), can make other folks second guess their own choices with a thread or opinion is a little scary.

My post here is to simply remind folks to look at how they use their own self-monitor choices when considering other folks' opinions. Compare the methods of use in the comparison presented to see if it applies to your own situation.

FWIW, I used the QSC HPR112i for a long time as a self monitor. Worked great in that application. I don't care about how it sounded 30' away in my application, because that is not how I used it. I've switched over to the FBT 8ma because it makes more sense (size,weight, cost) for ME in my application, which is at my feet aimed at my head. And I'm happy. YMMV.

 

[GuitarDojo]

See? When you read Scotts post he ends it with a bottom line. "YMMV" That is the stuff that works for him. His review of the QSC's helped me in my decision when I had an opportunity to pick up 2 new QSCs for cheap. I will prolly never let those guys go unless I need insta cash for the Atomics. They will be part of a PA.(The rest of the purchases will be Yorkville) Hopefully I will have help when setting up PA. They're frikin heavy!

Scott reviews are thorough and should help you in making your decision AFTER you have tried the product out yourself. Can't do that with the Atomics so I am taking a chance but I trust CC and TK.

I am happy - YMMV

 

[aleclee]

I've known Scott for some time (first met him in '02) and think I have a grip on where our tastes intersect and diverge. As such, I know exactly what he means when he says "YMMV" because my mileage does vary relative to his.

I bring this up to point out the danger of getting advice from internet discussion boards. Too often, people get advice about things from people they've never met with no sense of where the recommender is coming from. Couple that with the semantic imprecision common in discussion board posts and a lot of important data is missing for the person seeking advice. A classic rocker might not benefit so much from someone whose taste run more towards teh br00tulz.

Know (and explain) what you're looking for and make sure you understand the context of any advice being given.

BTW, another happy HPR122i user here. I wouldn't mind something a bit smaller/lighter but I got a good deal on mine and it does its job well. Haven't tried the 12ma but I did audition the 8ma: sounds great but I missed the air that a 12" driver can move. I'd like something small and less ridiculously powerful that I can afford to run in stereo for my practice room but at this point the single QSC does well enough that I'll hold on to my $$$.

 

[Ringleader]

FWIW, I've never auditioned nor used a 12ma, let alone posted any opinion of it. Just to keep the record straight. (Add the Coda to that list too, just to be complete!)

You're right, I wasn't meaning the 12ma specifically but I was referring to the concept of hyping a product on a forum and people jumping on the bandwagon in general. First the Axe-Fx which was ultra-mega-hype-zilla, then the JBL, then the QSC, and now the FBT (although the 8ma and not the 12ma). These glowing reviews are like a double edged sword and like Dojo (and now others since I started typing this) also stated I don't think some folks take the "YMMV" for as important it really is. It's just people sharing their thoughts and those thoughts can change from day to day or even minute to minute. I think A LOT of people bought the Axe-Fx because of your initial review from years ago. I know I bought one and tried it back then but really disliked it (at that time) and sent it back for a refund.

But on the other side of the sword , I'm happy I gave the Axe-Fx another shot as I really enjoy it now and all the advancements that have come with it. I also would have probably never tried the QSC if I hadn't read yours (and others) reviews, which I am also very happy with, so I thank you for both of those recommendations - even though it took a couple years to fully appreciate one of them.

 

[Scott Peterson]

FWIW, I've never auditioned nor used a 12ma, let alone posted any opinion of it. Just to keep the record straight. (Add the Coda to that list too, just to be complete!)

You're right, I wasn't meaning the 12ma specifically but I was referring to the concept of hyping a product on a forum and people jumping on the bandwagon in general. First the Axe-Fx which was ultra-mega-hype-zilla, then the JBL, then the QSC, and now the FBT (although the 8ma and not the 12ma). These glowing reviews are like a double edged sword and like Dojo (and now others since I started typing this) also stated I don't think some folks take the "YMMV" for as important it really is. It's just people sharing their thoughts and those thoughts can change from day to day or even minute to minute. I think A LOT of people bought the Axe-Fx because of your initial review from years ago. I know I bought one and tried it back then but really disliked it (at that time) and sent it back for a refund.

But on the other side of the sword , I'm happy I gave the Axe-Fx another shot as I really enjoy it now and all the advancements that have come with it. I also would have probably never tried the QSC if I hadn't read yours (and others) reviews, which I am also very happy with, so I thank you for both of those recommendations - even though it took a couple years to fully appreciate one of them.

I honestly try to keep away from 'hype' if at all possible. I speak of things as subjective opinion and NOT as objective truth. I always have, and I always will. When I am excited by something, I am excited to post about it and I always couch those opinions with MANY qualifiers - IMHO, YMMV - and so on.

My opinion, when I am digging something, is often interpreted as 'hype' and 'hyperbole' when I am expressing my subjective opinion. I have a right to my opinion and a right to express it; and I try to do that with context so that others can judge for themselves whether they agree with me or not.

As Alec notes above, my opinion is not some 'universal truth' by ANY stretch. It's just me sharing my experience with whatever I am talking about.

And one other quick point of fact, I only express opinions based on personal experience. I NEVER (EVER!) express a subjective opinion from a third party as "MY" opinion. (You are not the subject of that point, but adding it here anyway. )

 

[Ringleader]

I honestly try to keep away from 'hype' if at all possible.
[quote="Scott Peterson":252cvbc3]
Finally.

The Axe-FX is for real. All of it. It's the delivery of the promise I've wanted to believe, and I've tried to create over the years. It's a monster rig in a box. No corners cut, nothing to workaround. No excuses. No apologies. No qualifiers. It is Reality V.2.

Skip the 'modeling' thing. Skip the 'emulation' thing. Skip the tubes vs. everything else. It's simply game over. There is now a very real and viable alternative to tube amps. Better or worse? That's up to you. The point is that there is now a VERY real tone rig out there that really does it all.

[/quote:252cvbc3]
Oops, I must have mistaken this for hype.

 

[MisterE]

Just goes to show how people hold Scott in high regards.
His opinion is very valued so it's no wonder they're influenced by it.

Me on the the other hand, no one listens too
I've posted several reviews stating I've compared the QSC's to other monitors and I preferred the T4-MA's from LEM.
There, I've said it again.
But no one listens.
Too bad.
I'm perfectly happy and I hope everyone else will find something that suits them.
As Scott said, everyone's expectations are different so it's no surprise we end up with different solutions.
I always encourage people to use their ears and not let them be influenced by others.
You may use other people's opinions as a reference but in the end, you'll have to be happy and you can only trust your ears.

 

[Ringleader]

MisterE - I'm listening to ya man!

LEM T-4MA powered monitors. I personally liked them better than the QSC's. Unfortunately I think they're only available in Europe

I'm in the states so I'm screwed! :lol:

And - just between you and me - I only thought you really liked them because they kinda matched the shape of your Gordius.

 

[GuitarDojo]

^ They do look like a match!!

 

[Rocket Brother]

I've known Scott for some time (first met him in '02) and think I have a grip on where our tastes intersect and diverge. As such, I know exactly what he means when he says "YMMV" because my mileage does vary relative to his.

I bring this up to point out the danger of getting advice from internet discussion boards. Too often, people get advice about things from people they've never met with no sense of where the recommender is coming from. Couple that with the semantic imprecision common in discussion board posts and a lot of important data is missing for the person seeking advice. A classic rocker might not benefit so much from someone whose taste run more towards teh br00tulz.

Know (and explain) what you're looking for and make sure you understand the context of any advice being given.

+1
That is very sound (pun intended :roll: ) advice

 

[MisterE]

Jeeeez, you're right.
Never noticed that.
I must have been unintentionally influenced by the shape.
My eyes fooled my ears. :shock:
My god!!!!
Should I go out and buy a FBT now? Or a Coda?????


Wait. No.......
The Fratomic's comming

 

[GuitarDojo]

Wait. No.......
The Fratomic's comming

I cant wait. Expectations high!!!

 

[Scott Peterson]

I honestly try to keep away from 'hype' if at all possible.
[quote="Scott Peterson":g6j2tsc7]
Finally.

The Axe-FX is for real. All of it. It's the delivery of the promise I've wanted to believe, and I've tried to create over the years. It's a monster rig in a box. No corners cut, nothing to workaround. No excuses. No apologies. No qualifiers. It is Reality V.2.

Skip the 'modeling' thing. Skip the 'emulation' thing. Skip the tubes vs. everything else. It's simply game over. There is now a very real and viable alternative to tube amps. Better or worse? That's up to you. The point is that there is now a VERY real tone rig out there that really does it all.

Oops, I must have mistaken this for hype. [/quote:g6j2tsc7]

Not hype. Opinion. Mine. IMHO, YMMV. Note the qualifiers in the "REST" of the post and thread. Constantly. Over and over. Subjective and heartfelt? YES. Objective and universal to everyone, presented as objective fact? NO.

 

[Ringleader]

Wait. No.......
The Fratomic's comming

I cant wait. Expectations high!!!

+1,000,000!

 

[quasimono]

All i can say is (and yes, that is my personal opinion), that the FBT 12ma is an exceptionally well built and great sounding speaker in it's price range! Sure there'll be something better, but at double the cost and the like! No need for that for us mere rocking out mortals i guess..
I had the chance to compare the FBT to the QSC range of speakers, and the FBT sounded way better to me. Haven't heard any of the other products in person, so i got no opinion on these.

 

[GuitarDojo]

All i can say is (and yes, that is my personal opinion), that the FBT 12ma is an exceptionally well built and great sounding speaker in it's price range! Sure there'll be something better, but at double the cost and the like! No need for that for us mere rocking out mortals i guess..
I had the chance to compare the FBT to the QSC range of speakers, and the FBT sounded way better to me. Haven't heard any of the other products in person, so i got no opinion on these.

I can not say its well built (Cosmetically). Next to any of my other monitors it looks cheap. Sound is another deal. Its sounds great but I debate wether to keep it. Its sooo lite but wait the Atomic FRFR is coming. Shoot forget YMMV -

MMMV - MY MOOD MAY VARY!

 

[guitarded]

OK...FWIW...and this is just MHO...but I bet we will be seeing many more qualifiers (IMO-YMMV & so on...) pop up in all of our threads now!
But this is just IMOHO and YMMV... :lol: :lol:
...sorry...