That "in the room" bounce...

ventura

ventura

Experienced
Just a question for you more savvy and experienced A2 users. I'm set up awaiting my CLRs to go full on FRFR. Now, one thing I've always loved about amps - particularly the VH4 (most Diezel's in general) - is that they offer this truly sonic "three dimensionality" when played face-to-face (jam, gig, etc). I've come to realize that very few recorded tracks (if any?) in the music I listen to offer this "three dimensionality", which leads me to believe it's an artifact only attainable when playing "in the room". Maybe I'm wrong - just my opinion.

So here's my question:
With a good FRFR set up, do some of the models accessible in the A2's repertoire offer this "in the room" bounce and feel? The sonic "three dimensionality" I speak of? Just wondering - this would really be something to get jazzed about if it were for real. As my experience with the Axe-FX (Ultra and II) has only been through poweramp and cab, or DI, or headphones - this quality has never seemed attainable.

Stoked if it is :D

Appreciate your comments and experience with this...
Mo
 
ventura said:
Just a question for you more savvy and experienced A2 users. I'm set up awaiting my CLRs to go full on FRFR. Now, one thing I've always loved about amps - particularly the VH4 (most Diezel's in general) - is that they offer this truly sonic "three dimensionality" when played face-to-face (jam, gig, etc). I've come to realize that very few recorded tracks (if any?) in the music I listen to offer this "three dimensionality", which leads me to believe it's an artifact only attainable when playing "in the room". Maybe I'm wrong - just my opinion.

So here's my question:
With a good FRFR set up, do some of the models accessible in the A2's repertoire offer this "in the room" bounce and feel? The sonic "three dimensionality" I speak of? Just wondering - this would really be something to get jazzed about if it were for real. As my experience with the Axe-FX (Ultra and II) has only been through poweramp and cab, or DI, or headphones - this quality has never seemed attainable.

Stoked if it is :D

Appreciate your comments and experience with this...
Mo
Click to expand...

I moved from power amp - guit cab to frfr. Start was hard, i think rehearsal, small club gigs are better with real cab. Bigger stages, recording (as long as u dont have the best acoustic in the recording room, best mics and preampa, plus u should know how to use these stuff) direct with axe is better. But u should give frfr time. It takes a while to understand the way to use it.
 
It shouldn't sound exactly like a conventional cab, that's not what it's thought for. But that doesnt't mean that you can't have an impressive performance with a lot of pressure and a bit of roomyness.
The most important thing is to turn up the volume, so that the walls of the room you're in can bounce the sound back the same way they would do with a conventonal cab.
On of the biggest traps that you could run into is the ability of modelers to deliver plenty of highs. With a valve amp you would crank up the volume when you want to hear more details. With a modeler you get intrigued to turn up the highs, since you got many ways to do that. But that 's wrong, avoid to turn up the highs too far, since thatkeep you away from cranking the volume up.
You could create presets for recording purposes with studio highs, the ones that you might need for the FOH, and lower the highs in the axefx's output eq, the one that's for your monitoring, so you could crank the monitor up without cutting your ears of.
My 2cents, I do it that way and I like it.
 
ventura said:
As my experience with the Axe-FX (Ultra and II) has only been through poweramp and cab, or DI, or headphones - this quality has never seemed attainable.
Click to expand...
I don't know what to say about this. If you were not getting it with a power amp and cab you may have had your patch set up wrong. I have used my Axe (Ultra then ii) direct to FOH and I tweak with a FRFR wedge. When creating tones my goal is to sit right in the mix. When I make them I am always trying to us the perspective that "this is how it will sound through a PA" I have always had great results. Listen to this clip of me on youtube -->. Manifesto - YouTube It may not be your style of music but it was recorded on an ipad by someone in the crowd and it sounds great to me and for my goal od fitting in the mix and sounding good in the FOH
 
Semih Yanyali said:
I moved from power amp - guit cab to frfr. Start was hard, i think rehearsal, small club gigs are better with real cab. Bigger stages, recording (as long as u dont have the best acoustic in the recording room, best mics and preampa, plus u should know how to use these stuff) direct with axe is better. But u should give frfr time. It takes a while to understand the way to use it.
Click to expand...

Yup.
I'm still hanging on to a guitar cabinet for rehearsals and small gigs, where my rig needs to fill the room.
FRFR works great for personal monitoring on stage, but I prefer the amp+cab for other occasions.
 
yek said:
Yup.
I'm still hanging on to a guitar cabinet for rehearsals and small gigs, where my rig needs to fill the room.
FRFR works great for personal monitoring on stage, but I prefer the amp+cab for other occasions.
Click to expand...
I hate you guys for making me think that I may need a CLR or Matrix cube FRFR in case I ever need to carry a room, which I have not had to do once in almost 3 years since getting my ii but need less to say it can happen.
 
  • Like
Reactions: yek
FractalAudio said:
Use a regular guitar cab if you want that. It's mostly due to the directivity of guitar cabs and wall reflections.
Click to expand...

+1000

And do not forget: Exchange a Guitarcab with FRFR means:
[Cab+Mic+Position of mic+Mic Pre+(the Medium to hear anything:) FRFR-system] replaces the guitarcab. In other words: MUCH EQ-variables, you`ll have to control on the way to your ears ...

The cool thing of the axe is: you CAN do it tricky, but you MUST´NT ;)
 
I just had a rehearsal the other night with one RCF 12 on a stand about 3 feet off the ground (facing the same direction I would normally face a 1x12 combo) with some nice reverb and a little volume. I didn't miss anything. I've been exclusively using FRFR for the last 6 months now and either I'm just used to it, or I've got my patches tweaked to my liking (the RCF helps A LOT). However, I think it sounds better than messing with an amp and cab. Plenty of "in the room" reflections and bounce.
 
It's very interesting how us guit fiddle players can have such vastly different opinions. When I first got my Axe II I was initially quite disappointed. IMO, this was due to the Axe II sounding 'too much' like an amp in the room. FWIW, at the time I was using two Atomic active cabs. I actually prefer a more 'hi Fi' 'polished' 'studio' type sound. The Ultra, IMHO, tends to have more of that vibe out of the box. The II, IMHO, has more of an 'amp in the room' vibe. Again, I know this is all subjective... FWIW, I am a BIG Boogie guy... Heh heh, I said big boogie... And I have a cold... So it's funny cause its true. So naturally I went straight for the MK series amps. Something was missing, to me. I just sat down with my Axe II and tweaked it A/B'ing to my Ultra IIC+ model and in 20-30 minutes I had the II's IIC+ sounding even better and more 'polished' than my Ultra. Anyway, I know you're after the exact opposite type of sound. It's all absolutely attainable with just a little bit of time spent tweaking.

Now I'm jonesin' even more for the CLR. Especially after having to sell my Atomics. LOL!!! Now I'm using some Rolan Micro Monitors... Guess what?!? My Axe II STILL crushes!!!

I can't wait for FW 10. I can't wait to hear the reworked MK amps. That was another 'disappointment' (I'm spoiled man, what can I say) FAS rules!!!
 
+1, nater, though I'm using a pair of EV ELX112s on sticks about 5 feet off the ground. Beyond happy with my sound, and get compliments galore at every show.
 
I'm kinda confused now, we're talking about the "amp in the room" sound, correct? I've read a bunch of posts where people have said to use far-field IR's, EQ, etc, and you can achieve amp in the room. I know it's all subjective, but Cliff's posting basically says if you want that then go ahead and get a cab. I don't want to put words in Cliff's mouth, and I know it's all subjective, and given that I've not done an A/B of the Axe/FRFR with Axe/cab, now I'm wondering if I should.

I guess that's the obvious answer, right? Just get a cab and A/B. But then your sound is shaped by the cab... Or are we talking about something like a CLR cab?

Thought I had this stuff figured out, but apparently not.
 
I myself have given up on the in room sound for live and use an actual amp with the axe used for fx. I tried pwr amp/cab and several fr's. it was missing the round 3d sound i get from my amp. I'm an experienced tweaker too, just didn't satisfy me. I'm very happy with my setup now, except the drives on the axe may not sound as good as the real world pedals but you can work with them by combining. However I agree that in the studio the axe amp sims are a great tool.
 
Thanks for the posts, guys... So this question seems to offer yet again a divisiveness amongst the populous. If I want the 3D bounce? Use an actual factual guitar cabinet. I thought the whole idea of FRFR was to recreate the entire chain front to back and that the A2 was more than capable of sounding like the real deal, artifacts included.

I've used poweramps and cabs, various models at that. I felt it was "okay", but here I am wanting to dive in fully into the Axe-II world of sonic bliss and now I'm reading that maybe I oughta go back to my old world set up and try this again (amp/4x12)... [sits here scratching head wondering if it's all just a big conspiracy and that the forumites are collectively screwing with his head]

Peace,
Mo
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: yek
Opinions are like ******** everyone got one. What works for me is different than anyone else. If you or anyone else is happy with the fr sound or pwr amp-cab or 4cm.,The axe can do any of it well enough to satisfy all comers. IMHO I found the axe missing the "in room" sound I'm used too. I rely on my amp for gigs because of the style of music I play and I hardly ever use pa or monitors. For others they want a produced cd type sound coming from pa and it works for them.
 
Guitar cabs are more directional than a PA speaker, meaning the CLR, RCF, etc.

When you stand next to a 4x12, all that sound is shooting past you, under your ears and you hear much of it actually bouncing off walls and other objects in the room.

Ever play a 4x12, then bend down near the speakers and WOAH it's way loud and the highs are crazy!!! Well that's he sound all the time, just your ears are actually hearing the whole thing now.

PA speakers tend to be less directional so you hear more of that WOAH volume and treble at most listening positions. Fortunately we can shape almost any sound in the Axe.

I met a guitarist who preferred having his 2x12 1/2 open back combo amp backwards because the sound he heard was more pleasing. "Facing toward me it's too shrill and loud." He found that to be a better solution, than doing EQ and Volume adjustments. So he was in tone heaven, but guess what the audience heard? A shrill sound that was mic'd and sent through the PA.

Did he care? Nope. Did the audience dislike his band because "something sounds bad"? Yes.
 
More or less the whole reason I went for the Matrix GT1000FX in the rack .... I have the option of running to conventional cabs or passive FR cabs.
 
gsegal said:
Opinions are like ******** everyone got one.
Click to expand...
And if it ain't yours, it typically stinks :D

Chris@KatsuKuriMedia said:
Guitar cabs are more directional than a PA speaker, meaning the CLR, RCF, etc.
Click to expand...
I know this.

Let's refocus. Original post was trying to explain that "some amps" have a 3D bounce to them. Pardon me if "3D bounce" sounds silly, or doesn't convey the aspect I am trying to communicate here. It's difficult to put into words such subjective and qualitative observations. However, of the many amps I've had the pleasure of playing over the years, I've come to realize that Diezel's VH4 (and Hagen and Herbert, but specifically, the VH4 Ch.3 & 4) has a real element of "girth" and "texture" and "richness" to its tone. Aside from the usual qualifiers of "IMHO" and "YMMV", this isn't the cab talking - albeit yes to some extent it is - this is specific to the amp (as I've used many amps, and while all offer that up close and personal feel when played "in the room", nothing "fills" the room like VH4's Ch.3 - low, moderate or high volume regardless).

Bottom line, if there's anyone out there that understands my insane verbal meanderings about the "in the room 3D bounce offered by the real deal VH4" who has also experienced this with a full on FRFR (whether it be RCF, or Mackie, or QSC, or whatever) system, please chime in.

Namaste,
Mo
 
ventura said:
And if it ain't yours, it typically stinks :D


I know this.

Let's refocus. Original post was trying to explain that "some amps" have a 3D bounce to them. Pardon me if "3D bounce" sounds silly, or doesn't convey the aspect I am trying to communicate here. It's difficult to put into words such subjective and qualitative observations. However, of the many amps I've had the pleasure of playing over the years, I've come to realize that Diezel's VH4 (and Hagen and Herbert, but specifically, the VH4 Ch.3 & 4) has a real element of "girth" and "texture" and "richness" to its tone. Aside from the usual qualifiers of "IMHO" and "YMMV", this isn't the cab talking - albeit yes to some extent it is - this is specific to the amp (as I've used many amps, and while all offer that up close and personal feel when played "in the room", nothing "fills" the room like VH4's Ch.3 - low, moderate or high volume regardless).

Bottom line, if there's anyone out there that understands my insane verbal meanderings about the "in the room 3D bounce offered by the real deal VH4" who has also experienced this with a full on FRFR (whether it be RCF, or Mackie, or QSC, or whatever) system, please chime in.

Namaste,
Mo
Click to expand...

I get it. That is exactly the reason why I went back to using my clean amp and use the axe for coloring with drives, eq, reverbs,delay, pitch type etc... When I lined them up back to back I always preferred the amp, so I stopped trying to sound like an amp and just went back to using one. Not to say you can't get a really nice sound with the axe anyway you use it. It just sounded more up close and personal.
 
maxdown said:
More or less the whole reason I went for the Matrix GT1000FX in the rack .... I have the option of running to conventional cabs or passive FR cabs.
Click to expand...

I went this way too. But, truth be told, I never use my cab anymore, only my FRFR speak. Is it 'the same'? No. It's a little more 'hi-fi', a little less 'throaty' or 'gutteral'. Could I get there if I went tweak-city on it? I bet I could, but I don't want to. Now I and the audience are hearing the same thing, and that's a good thing. And, I'm hearing details and clarity and crisp transients and a tight, defined low end I never got out of any cab. In the end, it's all a matter of taste. Go with what inspires our playing!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom