Technical Question

Doh you were supposed to say it was proprietary information! Just like the answer to your question!
 
javajunkie said:
The effect is apparently reversed in software (somewhere before the grid). The net effect is a flat response. However, it is on the front input. So your test would not capture that.
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Agreed. I was trying to show that the rear inputs were normal or without any "special sauce" processing.

Keith


Edit: Meant to say "without" above.
 
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Niklas Nilsson said:
I really don't get why this would help you in any way. It seems more like you're trying to reverse engineer the unit that just playing and tweaking it.
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Some of us are interested in understanding our tools. Some of us use our tools, notice things, and then desire to understand why.

I already temper what I post here for fear of becoming a pariah. Most critique here results in... let's just say.. unproductive postings. Critique done with intent for positive result(s) is often treated in similar ways to that which is considered malicious. I am personally interested in this, as there are certain characteristics that could be explained if supposition is supported by the techniques in use.

BTW- the reverse engineer comment is indicative of what I just wrote about. And this post likely earned me a letter of reddish color...
 
nikki-k said:
Some of us are interested in understanding our tools. Some of us use our tools, notice things, and then desire to understand why.

I already temper what I post here for fear of becoming a pariah. Most critique here results in... let's just say.. unproductive postings. Critique done with intent for positive result(s) is often treated in similar ways to that which is considered malicious. I am personally interested in this, as there are certain characteristics that could be explained if supposition is supported by the techniques in use.

BTW- the reverse engineer comment is indicative of what I just wrote about. And this post likely earned me a letter of reddish color...
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Please don't temper what you post simply because of the few who post absurd replies for whatever reason. I love reading you posts and insights. Your questions often get me thinking and researching for my own little reasons. Heck, I have new books specifically because of you. Not to mention the frequent trips to the online dictionary. :) Post away and just ignore the subsequent snarky replies. I guarantee you that many share my opinion on this.
 
Hmmm... here it goes then. And huge apologies to Search4Tone for the sidetrack..

The pick attack when utilizing the front input is "wrong." To me. I do not expect the majority of people to hear/feel this. It is not the product of the amplifier models, but it can be exacerbated through their use. What do I mean by "wrong"? It is quite difficult to explain, but I will try.

Comparatively, when I play via a tube or SS guitar amp, the Axe's pick attack is different. Sort of like... two parts. Amplitude is one aspect. The hardest pick attack is fine in this regard. But, just below that, and inclusive of about the top 2/3 of "hard picked" attack, is.. "compressed feeling." Below that is good, amplitude-wise. So, what might be considered the upper 2/3 of hard pick attack feels to me like it is "squished" into the top 1/4 or so of the Axe's. I can get the amplitude to respond in a similar manner IF I consciously and severely alter my technique.

Next is the Time of the "pick attack envelope." I am a glutton for nuance... for subtleties. I love that slow, grinding dig into a string. Consider the pick attack envelope.. ADSR. The Attack and Delay portions are.. "squished".. for me with the Axe. Combined with the amplitude aspect, it makes nuances I am used to incredibly difficult to reproduce, without a good bit of conscious effort to compensate. Tweaking an amp model can lessen the exacerbation of this, but it will not "remove" it. Hence my interest in this thread, and the thread I started asking about inputs. I figured that if the pick attack issue I experience is not originating in the Amp Block, and if I notice it in a shunted patch, the origin must be before the Blocks.

If someone does not hear/feel this, it can result in a reaction of, "You are imagining it," "You are attacking our beloved gear," You just want to stir the pot," etc. It can also result in others coming forward with similar experiences, perhaps some as hesitant to discuss for fear of undo reprisal/dismissal as I have been. "Change your technique." "Change the pick you use." "Tweak the amp model."

"So don't use the Axe then... Obviously, you do not like it."

Uh, actually, I do like it, or I would not spend incredible amounts of time obsessing over discovering why. If others step forward with similar claims or affirmation of hearing/experiencing what I am, then I feel it may be worth pursuing, no? If no one else is experiencing this, or it is not as bothersome for them, then.. yes, it may be better for me to seek different gear for a DI recording solution. But, I would rather exhaust those other options first. And, it would be nice to do so with help from the community, and from the developers. :D
 
nikki-k said:
The pick attack when utilizing the front input is "wrong." To me.
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Are you saying it's "right" using the rear input? I have my concerns with the front input, expressed in other threads, but I don't believe it affects pick attack much. Unless you push that input gain too far. I'm positive it's in the amp/cab simulation. I'm still searching for the natural "woody" attack in this thing + getting that compression/bite to act when I dig real deep into the strings. I have only spent some hours on it though, so I'll experiment more before concluding anything 8)
 
Trazan said:
Are you saying it's "right" using the rear input?
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I have not experimented enough with this, as I (unfortunately) had to downsize (far beyond) considerably after the accident that put me in my chair permanently. With what equipment I do have left.. I have been trying to find the right settings for using the Axe in the effects loop of my Legacy. Oddly enough, I have not ever used an effects loop for my own rig in over thirty years of playing. It was either straight in, a few pedals, or a "rack rig" with FX between the preamp and power amp.

I am trying to find a clean DI to borrow so as to (more) properly play with the rear inputs. With the Legacy, the issue remained when using rear input 1 (and a shunted patch at unity), although greatly reduced.
 
nikki-k said:
Hmmm... here it goes then. And huge apologies to Search4Tone for the sidetrack..

The pick attack when utilizing the front input is "wrong." To me. I do not expect the majority of people to hear/feel this. It is not the product of the amplifier models, but it can be exacerbated through their use. What do I mean by "wrong"? It is quite difficult to explain, but I will try.

Comparatively, when I play via a tube or SS guitar amp, the Axe's pick attack is different. Sort of like... two parts. Amplitude is one aspect. The hardest pick attack is fine in this regard. But, just below that, and inclusive of about the top 2/3 of "hard picked" attack, is.. "compressed feeling." Below that is good, amplitude-wise. So, what might be considered the upper 2/3 of hard pick attack feels to me like it is "squished" into the top 1/4 or so of the Axe's. I can get the amplitude to respond in a similar manner IF I consciously and severely alter my technique.

Next is the Time of the "pick attack envelope." I am a glutton for nuance... for subtleties. I love that slow, grinding dig into a string. Consider the pick attack envelope.. ADSR. The Attack and Delay portions are.. "squished".. for me with the Axe. Combined with the amplitude aspect, it makes nuances I am used to incredibly difficult to reproduce, without a good bit of conscious effort to compensate. Tweaking an amp model can lessen the exacerbation of this, but it will not "remove" it. Hence my interest in this thread, and the thread I started asking about inputs. I figured that if the pick attack issue I experience is not originating in the Amp Block, and if I notice it in a shunted patch, the origin must be before the Blocks.

If someone does not hear/feel this, it can result in a reaction of, "You are imagining it," "You are attacking our beloved gear," You just want to stir the pot," etc. It can also result in others coming forward with similar experiences, perhaps some as hesitant to discuss for fear of undo reprisal/dismissal as I have been. "Change your technique." "Change the pick you use." "Tweak the amp model."

"So don't use the Axe then... Obviously, you do not like it."

Uh, actually, I do like it, or I would not spend incredible amounts of time obsessing over discovering why. If others step forward with similar claims or affirmation of hearing/experiencing what I am, then I feel it may be worth pursuing, no? If no one else is experiencing this, or it is not as bothersome for them, then.. yes, it may be better for me to seek different gear for a DI recording solution. But, I would rather exhaust those other options first. And, it would be nice to do so with help from the community, and from the developers. :D
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Do you find that using lower settings of the input level lessens the "squishiness"? I remember comparing my BOSS GT-Pro to my Axe Standard when I first puchased the Standard. I remember that there was one thing I liked more about the BOSS (oh crap, did he just say...), and that was the fact that it sounded more "immediate" and direct when picking notes. So, I think I know what you're talking about, but I have accepted it as being the character of the Axe Fx, regarding pick attack.
 
Immediate and direct would be good descriptors as well.
It is not "squishiness," but rather "Squish-ed-ness" ;)

Interestingly, when I lower the input (I have set it to "tickle the red on the hardest strums of all strings," as well as backing it off just a few notches from there so no red is ever tickled) more than about "ten notches" past where the red is tickled, I would compare the resulting loss of "umph" to lowering the gain slider on an MXR 10-band EQ pedal a bit. I suppose I could simply "make it up" by boosting a little internally, but since the suggested manner of operation is "tickle the red," it is what I have been doing.

To answer that question: lowering the input level does not remove the effect, it simply lowers the intensity. The use of an Amp Block presents the same exacerbated effect.
 
nikki-k said:
I suppose I could simply "make it up" by boosting a little internally
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No, this is what the AFX II does all by itself when you lower the input gain. At first I thought.....damn, this thing just refuses to let me adjust the output of my guitars! I couldn't make up for any output differences. It's not a gain control at all, it's a "noise floor trim". I do like the concept a lot now though; my guitars will ALWAYS end up in the virtual landscape at their "original" level, no matter what guitar has been there before (where the input trim is set). The only way to change it is to trim it within the.....Matrix :eek: 8)
 
The front input circuit has no effect on the dynamics of the signal so I don't think this is related to what you're describing.

Have you tried turning down or off dynamics and sag in the amp advanced tab?
 
AdamCook said:
The front input circuit has no effect on the dynamics of the signal so I don't think this is related to what you're describing.

Have you tried turning down or off dynamics and sag in the amp advanced tab?
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I'm wondering, does the front input limiter start kicking in with the red light....or somewhere beyond that?
 
Trazan said:
I'm wondering, does the front input limiter start kicking in with the red light....or somewhere beyond that?
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The red light turns on BEFORE the front input clips. It means "warning you're approaching clipping" as opposed to "warning you ARE clipping".

-Adam
 
AdamCook said:
The red light turns on BEFORE the front input clips. It means "warning you're approaching clipping" as opposed to "warning you ARE clipping".

-Adam
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Yeah, but it's impossible to clip that AD, at least with my guitars 8) There's a limiter that kicks in, so I'm just wondering if it kicks in with the red light or a bit after that?
 
Trazan said:
Yeah, but it's impossible to clip that AD, at least with my guitars 8) There's a limiter that kicks in, so I'm just wondering if it kicks in with the red light or a bit after that?
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I'm using hard limiter and clipping synonymously as they're essentially the same thing.

Red light turns on at -6dB of the point where the signal is hard limited / clipped.
 
BTW, nothing I'm mentioning is new information. Matt did a great job explaining it in the manual on page 15.
 
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