TC-1210/TC SCF

R

rrhoads17

Inspired
Are there any plans in the to implement a model of the TC 1210 and/or the TC SCF? I think the TC 1210 is probably the best rack chorus ever made because it also had a little bit of flanging going on which made it unique to me. I am assuming if one wanted to get that sound currently, you would need to use a mix of the chorus and flanger block?
 
I've just finished up a really good clone of the TC1210. It's so close, I can't tell the difference when used on guitar. It's going to be included in my Lukather preset for Cygnus.

In short, the TC1210 is a wonky unit. It has some unique interactivity between the speed, width (depth) and delay knobs. And the manual lies to you. The manual for the TC1210 plugin corrects and adds to the original manual.

Try this for a standard chorus using one engine of the TC:

Analog stereo
Voices 2
Rate 0.5 hz
Auto depth off
Delay 2.6 ms
Depth 22 %
Width 0 %
LFO phase 180 degrees
High cut 15 k
Drive 5.05

Mix to taste.
 
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I would like that too. The SCF is my favorite chorus pedal of all time.

I think, the 80s chorus comes pretty close, but I never did a 1:1 comparison
 
Smittefar said:
I would like that too. The SCF is my favorite chorus pedal of all time.

I think, the 80s chorus comes pretty close, but I never did a 1:1 comparison
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I haven't analysed a SCF enough to suggest settings, but I do know that it's not a true stereo chorus. It has a simple audio phase reverse on the right channel.
 
Unfortunately, I sold my TC SCF many years ago. However, TC has a plugin version of it - I might try to download the trial and match it to the AxeFX. I guess a good starting point is the analog chorus with phase reverse on the right side.

(to be perfectly honest, I never used my SCF in stereo - I just ran mono, and it was still glorious)
 
So I downloaded the TC SCF plugin trial today - It sounds a lot like I remember my real SCF. I think these two settings sound pretty close, but I have to listen again tomorrow with fresh ears
SCFplug vs AxeIII.png


EDIT: I also tried the 1210 plugin - I did not find a single chorus sound in there that I liked for guitar :(

EDIT2. On the tone page, I raised the high cut to 15k and the drive to 5
 
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Smittefar said:
So I downloaded the TC SCF plugin trial today - It sounds a lot like I remember my real SCF. I think these two settings sound pretty close, but I have to listen again tomorrow with fresh ears
View attachment 82036


EDIT: I also tried the 1210 plugin - I did not find a single chorus sound in there that I liked for guitar :(
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The 2 original chorus presets for the TC 1210 is a good place to start. A bit more subtle than what the studio guys dialed in though. I can take a look at the SCF plugin tomorrow. I'm quite curious about how it differs from the 1210.
 
For starters, the control layout is much simpler. I must admit, I looked at the 1210 UI and had no idea, which knob to turn.
 
Smittefar said:
For starters, the control layout is much simpler. I must admit, I looked at the 1210 UI and had no idea, which knob to turn.
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The manual explains everything ;) You can turn off the right page with the I/II buttons in the top left. Then it looks more like the hardware. Basically everything there is unrealistic to edit if you want to emulate the hardware (except the kill dry function).

The main knobs you have to worry about are speed, depth, intensity, and delay. I would suggest turning of the cross function (L+R).

Other than that, the spread should be at zero for realism, and the shape button should be set to wide for stereo, or narrow for mono (narrow is the same as sweep sync on the hardware).
 
guitarnerdswe said:
In short, the TC1210 is a wonky unit.
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haha! I like that description. pretty much nails it!

do you have any other settings "available" already? really liking the one you posted above and very much reminds me of the 1210s I've played. I prefer it with Auto Depth set to "High" though and compensate with "Depth". makes it less detuned sounding...
 
VegaBaby said:
haha! I like that description. pretty much nails it!

do you have any other settings "available" already? really liking the one you posted above and very much reminds me of the 1210s I've played. I prefer it with Auto Depth set to "High" though and compensate with "Depth". makes it less detuned sounding...
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I used auto depth off, because I know the range of the depth parameter when that is off (40 ms). Saved me a lot of time when dialling it in, since auto depth scales the depth with rate.

Anyway, I didn't go all out for any other settings that what Lukather used. But some pointers:

  • Delay sets the starting delay. When the delay is at minimum, the depth (width) makes the delay time modulated longer. When delay is at maximum, the depth makes the delay time modulated shorter. So somewhere in the middle, the depth makes the delay time go shorter and longer. So damn strange that it makes me chuckle.
  • Max delay time is just shy of 12 ms. For us Axe-Fx users (or any other unit), that's not our delay parameter, but the max total delay time when the modulation is at it deepest/widest. That's why I used times in the 2.xx ms, because the delay in this case (slow and wide) modulates from about 2.6 ms to 11.8 ms. And it's a perfect example of the TC1210 manual being incorrect. It states that the max delay time is 22 ms, but it's closer to half that.
  • Speed scales the depth. So at very slow speeds (0.1 kHz) and max depth, the delay knob pretty much does nothing. Even with speed at 0.5 kHz and depth at 5 (Lukathers settings), the delay knob does almost nothing. The difference between max delay (6 on the unit) and 4, was only like 0.3 ms at both ends of the sweep at Luktathers speed and depth settings.
  • The waveform is a mix between sine and exponential. Closer to a pure sine wave though.
 
Love this thread :)

I will share sound bytes later today. I am slowly learning how the chorus block parameters work in the Axe. It is not as intuitive as I thought. @guitarnerdswe, I look forward to your thought on the SCF plugin and how to replicate it. I will also give the 1210 another go.
 
guitarnerdswe said:
I used auto depth off, because I know the range of the depth parameter when that is off (40 ms). Saved me a lot of time when dialling it in, since auto depth scales the depth with rate.

Anyway, I didn't go all out for any other settings that what Lukather used. But some pointers:

  • Delay sets the starting delay. When the delay is at minimum, the depth (width) makes the delay time modulated longer. When delay is at maximum, the depth makes the delay time modulated shorter. So somewhere in the middle, the depth makes the delay time go shorter and longer. So damn strange that it makes me chuckle.
  • Max delay time is just shy of 12 ms. For us Axe-Fx users (or any other unit), that's not our delay parameter, but the max total delay time when the modulation is at it deepest/widest. That's why I used times in the 2.xx ms, because the delay in this case (slow and wide) modulates from about 2.6 ms to 11.8 ms. And it's a perfect example of the TC1210 manual being incorrect. It states that the max delay time is 22 ms, but it's closer to half that.
  • Speed scales the depth. So at very slow speeds (0.1 kHz) and max depth, the delay knob pretty much does nothing. Even with speed at 0.5 kHz and depth at 5 (Lukathers settings), the delay knob does almost nothing. The difference between max delay (6 on the unit) and 4, was only like 0.3 ms at both ends of the sweep at Luktathers speed and depth settings.
  • The waveform is a mix between sine and exponential. Closer to a pure sine wave though.
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oh wow, that's definitely some wonky behaviour!
did you use a Sine wave fo the lfo posted in your settings above? sounds really good with Triangle as well (eventhough not close to the OG anymore, I suppose).

thanks for doing all this analyzing. really looking forwardto your "final" emulation settings... :)
 
VegaBaby said:
oh wow, that's definitely some wonky behaviour!
did you use a Sine wave fo the lfo posted in your settings above? sounds really good with Triangle as well (eventhough not close to the OG anymore, I suppose).

thanks for doing all this analyzing. really looking forwardto your "final" emulation settings... :)
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Yes, I used a sine wave. The wave form is like a sine on top, but exponential on the bottom (it stays longer on the short end of the time spectrum, and just quickly dips down to the longest delay time).

Thanks man, I really appreciate it 🙂
 
Smittefar said:
Love this thread :)

I will share sound bytes later today. I am slowly learning how the chorus block parameters work in the Axe. It is not as intuitive as I thought. @guitarnerdswe, I look forward to your thought on the SCF plugin and how to replicate it. I will also give the 1210 another go.
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I've downloaded the plugin and done some measurements. I'll revisit it tomorrow. Do you have any specific settings you want copied? This one is also kinda strange in the interactivity between the speed and depth. Why can't they just make a chorus were the min delay time is fixed? :tearsofjoy:
 
I don't even know, how you measure these things :D

Anyway, I made a short video showing my reference sound and my progress. I think my final sound (around the 4 minute mark) is very close. Near the end, I reduce the mix, and I think that was the right thing to do, but I should have increased the depth a bit to compensate. The SCF is a bit more wobbly than my sound.


But I have so many questions. What does LFO phase actually do in a mono chorus? Is it just rotating the phase of the delayed signal? I think I heard a difference between 0 and 90 degrees, but I do not hear the difference between 90 and 180. Also, what does the "Width" do - It seems like, it would be a thing for a stereo chorus.

EDIT: I should say that I am pretty sure, I made a mistake - The recorded signal that passes thru the SCF plugin did not go thru the reverb, while the DI signal thru the Axe has reverb on all the time (although it is a very discrete reverb)
 
Smittefar said:
I don't even know, how you measure these things :D

Anyway, I made a short video showing my reference sound and my progress. I think my final sound (around the 4 minute mark) is very close. Near the end, I reduce the mix, and I think that was the right thing to do, but I should have increased the depth a bit to compensate. The SCF is a bit more wobbly than my sound.


But I have so many questions. What does LFO phase actually do in a mono chorus? Is it just rotating the phase of the delayed signal? I think I heard a difference between 0 and 90 degrees, but I do not hear the difference between 90 and 180. Also, what does the "Width" do - It seems like, it would be a thing for a stereo chorus.

EDIT: I should say that I am pretty sure, I made a mistake - The recorded signal that passes thru the SCF plugin did not go thru the reverb, while the DI signal thru the Axe has reverb on all the time (although it is a very discrete reverb)
Click to expand...

Well, the mono chorus is the same as the stereo version, but with different default values. Same algorithm etc.

I can tell you right now that if you want to emulate the spread of the SCF, you need more than one block. The right dry signal is phase reversed, but the chorus is totally mono. I use a combination of repeating clicks, white noise, spectrogram, and test signals (sine, triangle etc) to measure. It's nerdy, but it works. I can measure the delay times down to individual samples.
 
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