Talk me off the ledge

The radical simplicity of "all in the box" is its own joy. Less setup, less breakdown, less to carry, less to go wrong.

I am with you but the less carrying argument is not always the case. An Axe fx III plus flightcase plus FC12 plus case and maybe an FRFR speaker is just as much carrying as say a combo with a pedal board. If you compare it to big Marshall stacks you are correct.

I would even argue that a combo plus pedalboard is much simpler to handle than a modeller on stage. Easier on the fly adjustments, more or less the same sound on each gig etc. But each his own. I like both options, depending on the gig or band.
 
I like pedalboards for writing songs, I 100% get having more real knobs for the creative process @Bodde - strong agree there. I have a pedalboard I don't travel for that reason.
Live I want the opposite. The least that can get knocked around. The least to wire up, the least that can break but still sounds and feels totally great. Nothing touches the power + simplicity of Fractal for that. I do prefer real guitar cabs however. FRFR is like a pedalboard to me, does things only it can do, but is also finickier about resonance unless you stand mount it, which I'm not going to do at a club show.

Well yes and no @Deadpool_25 Its not all perspective. How many unique pieces are there that can break, fail or get loose? That is a very real difference for live shows that is mechanical and not opinion.

Example - I've seen plenty of sweet looking custom pedalboards mess up shows, but never a midi controller doing the same thing - and its not a coincidence.

There's a ton more stuff in a big board to go wrong, its just odds catching up with people. All those power cables, batteries, patch cables, even solder points inside all those pedals...

Speaking from personal experience I've seen everyone from the humble other guy in my bar band to Mr. Steve Vai on the G3 tour have the same, random, buried patch cable go bad during a show... suddenly the signal cuts in and out or gets really noisy. THAT is most assuredly not the same and that is no small thing.

What people like for tone/feel/etc? Of course, that is indeed pure preference.

Be well!
 
@FPFL It's still perspective on what you consider an acceptable level of risk.

If you don't want to use 4CM because you feel it introduces more risk than you're willing to accept, that's completely fine of course but it doesn't mean someone else isn't willing to accept that same level of risk or that they're wrong or silly to do so. Further, they may be of the opinion that you're too worried about the risks.

Then you could debate it all day, but what would be the point? At the end of the day, you'll play your rig how you want to and they'll play theirs how they want to and you can both be happy. :)

And I HAVE seen midi controllers fail at shows. Heck, I've seen guitars fail. There's a level of risk with anything.
 
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I like pedalboards for writing songs, I 100% get having more real knobs for the creative process @Bodde - strong agree there. I have a pedalboard I don't travel for that reason.
Live I want the opposite. The least that can get knocked around. The least to wire up, the least that can break but still sounds and feels totally great. Nothing touches the power + simplicity of Fractal for that. I do prefer real guitar cabs however. FRFR is like a pedalboard to me, does things only it can do, but is also finickier about resonance unless you stand mount it, which I'm not going to do at a club show.

Well yes and no @Deadpool_25 Its not all perspective. How many unique pieces are there that can break, fail or get loose? That is a very real difference for live shows that is mechanical and not opinion.

Example - I've seen plenty of sweet looking custom pedalboards mess up shows, but never a midi controller doing the same thing - and its not a coincidence.

There's a ton more stuff in a big board to go wrong, its just odds catching up with people. All those power cables, batteries, patch cables, even solder points inside all those pedals...

Speaking from personal experience I've seen everyone from the humble other guy in my bar band to Mr. Steve Vai on the G3 tour have the same, random, buried patch cable go bad during a show... suddenly the signal cuts in and out or gets really noisy. THAT is most assuredly not the same and that is no small thing.

What people like for tone/feel/etc? Of course, that is indeed pure preference.

Be well!
I'm confused. How is your argument here regarding pedalboards related to anything written here by @Deadpool_25? Or anyone else for that matter?

The primary discussion in this thread seems to be about using the FM9 in 4CM as opposed to running direct to FRFR or the board. You then indicate that you prefer using a guitar cab over FRFR, which requires some sort of power amp. This could add complexity and more pieces "that can break" wouldn't it?

Assuming you're in this forum because you're using an FM9, there are those who might argue that an FM3 has even less to break since there are fewer switches. Switches are notorious for failing now and then on many different types of gear. If your focus is eliminating all potential for mechanical failure, maybe a modeler with no switches at all, sending a single preset or scene to the board, would be an even better solution.

The question for each of us is at what point does our rig give us a combination of great tone, flexibility, ease of setup, ease of use, reasonable cost, customer support, etc. that we personally feel is best for our needs. The fact that there are so many choices of guitar, amps, pedals, modelers and other gear in use demonstrates the wide range of perspectives in play.

All of this really is about our personal perspectives. And the differing perspectives of others are valid even when they don't reflect your own personal values or judgement.
 
I use an FM3 actually. I'm on the list for an FM9 but read the forum for fun.
FWIW, the switches on everything Fractal have been bombproof for me. The only switch problems I ever had was on a Gen1 Line6 DL4.

My point is simple. How many power plugs, long cables and little patch cables do people bring to a gig for a 4CM?
A lot more than I do for fractal -> power amp -> guitar cab. I know b/c I used to do 4CM for years and years!
That's a lot more points of failure and surprise in that world. A lot more places where any change, changes your tone too. Its a lot of work.

My focus is people who play out. 4CM is a lot more stuff on the stage... the singer can trip on when he runs around and disconnects me (which happened)... the big bass player can step on and crack something (which has also happened)... a beer can get spilled on and then you wonder if its dead, which has also happened. The stories are many and certainly I only have a small sliver, there are more here! : )

Today with an FM3 and a power amp sitting on the cab, wheels locked, everything is safely backline for me except the FC6 run by a single MIDI cable that is well wrapped and taped down right next to the mic stand I use, which people instinctively don't run into. This has been great. If the sound guy wants a direct out, no problem, if he wants to mic my cab, no problem. I'm saying this is an alternative to the anxiety of lugging a lot of semi-fragile connections to get "your tone" and then hope nobody trips on your "I can launch rockets with this" pedalboard. The cliff to me is 4CM itself. : )

That I have a lot less to randomly go wrong with an FC6 to an FM3 is the math of far fewer and sturdier pieces, not opinion.

What is just my opinion is I don't think tube amps sound any better than current firmware if you truly understand how levels work in a digital signal chain, but they do have more real knobs... and knobs are fun and lead to creativity. That's why I still have amps, besides the romantic memories of younger days.
 
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If anyone here does the 4CM thing, it’s in your/our best interest that @Jdzialak gets it resolved because we’ll all benefit. He’s a monster guitarist and I’ve never heard him play with anything less than a stellar guitar tone. I definitely wouldn’t be trying to talk him OUT of 4CM because he’ll just ditch the FM9 and go back to the plenty of KILLER gear he already has. :D
 
I use an FM3 actually. I'm on the list for an FM9 but read the forum for fun.
FWIW, the switches on everything Fractal have been bombproof for me. The only switch problems I ever had was on a Gen1 Line6 DL4.

My point is simple. How many power plugs, long cables and little patch cables do people bring to a gig for a 4CM?
A lot more than I do for fractal -> power amp -> guitar cab. I know b/c I used to do 4CM for years and years!
That's a lot more points of failure and surprise in that world. A lot more places where any change, changes your tone too. Its a lot of work.

My focus is people who play out. 4CM is a lot more stuff on the stage... the singer can trip on when he runs around and disconnects me (which happened)... the big bass player can step on and crack something (which has also happened)... a beer can get spilled on and then you wonder if its dead, which has also happened. The stories are many and certainly I only have a small sliver, there are more here! : )

Today with an FM3 and a power amp sitting on the cab, wheels locked, everything is safely backline for me except the FC6 run by a single MIDI cable that is well wrapped and taped down right next to the mic stand I use, which people instinctively don't run into. This has been great. If the sound guy wants a direct out, no problem, if he wants to mic my cab, no problem. I'm saying this is an alternative to the anxiety of lugging a lot of semi-fragile connections to get "your tone" and then hope nobody trips on your "I can launch rockets with this" pedalboard. The cliff to me is 4CM itself. : )

That I have a lot less to randomly go wrong with an FC6 to an FM3 is the math of far fewer and sturdier pieces, not opinion.

What is just my opinion is I don't think tube amps sound any better than current firmware if you truly understand how levels work in a digital signal chain, but they do have more real knobs... and knobs are fun and lead to creativity. That's why I still have amps, besides the romantic memories of younger days.

I’ve been using 4cm for almost all gigs/rehearsals for 2 decades, which for me is a few times a week on average (so not as much as pros, but still many many rehearsals and gigs). I’ve had zero failures. On a few occasions the particular setup at a venue resulted in a ground loop, which I solved by inserting a line isolator between the pedalboard and amp. I eventually added an interface that allows me to lift audio ground and haven’t had to use the isolator since.

And almost as long as I’ve used 4cm, I’ve used a 4-channel snake (2 conductors and shield, per channel) so there is only one cable between front of stage (or wherever else I am) and the backline (or wherever else my amp is). Unless the stage is massive, I route it along the side of the stage, away from singers and bassists. It carries all the audio and control signals (sometimes low voltage relays, sometimes MIDI, depending on the amp). No one has ever tripped on them, and they have never broken/failed. I build them with cable from Redco and standard TS/TRS/XLR connectors - not sure the total cost, but probably about $50-60 for the whole snake. The snakes have gotten quite wet (rain, spilled drinks) and have never failed.

I’m starting to do more things with an FM3 rig (no amp or pedals) because I joined a band that uses IEMs and a ‘silent stage’, and interestingly adding IEMs and doubling on sax, mando, and BGs has ultimately increased the amount of cabling and hookups for me compared to my amp/pedalboard rig, though so far the only real issue was when I tangled my IEM cable and guitar cable mid-set and couldn’t move further than 2 feet from my mic position. Will probably invest in a wireless for the IEMs if the gig continues!

Tonally I’m happy with either rig - both sound great and have huge flexibility, though the FM3 has virtually unlimited tones in it so is ultimately more flexible, even if it misses some functionality from my pedalboard (no EHX 9 series emulations, for example).
 
I use an FM3 actually. I'm on the list for an FM9 but read the forum for fun.
FWIW, the switches on everything Fractal have been bombproof for me. The only switch problems I ever had was on a Gen1 Line6 DL4.

My point is simple. How many power plugs, long cables and little patch cables do people bring to a gig for a 4CM?
A lot more than I do for fractal -> power amp -> guitar cab. I know b/c I used to do 4CM for years and years!
That's a lot more points of failure and surprise in that world. A lot more places where any change, changes your tone too. Its a lot of work.

My focus is people who play out. 4CM is a lot more stuff on the stage... the singer can trip on when he runs around and disconnects me (which happened)... the big bass player can step on and crack something (which has also happened)... a beer can get spilled on and then you wonder if its dead, which has also happened. The stories are many and certainly I only have a small sliver, there are more here! : )

Today with an FM3 and a power amp sitting on the cab, wheels locked, everything is safely backline for me except the FC6 run by a single MIDI cable that is well wrapped and taped down right next to the mic stand I use, which people instinctively don't run into. This has been great. If the sound guy wants a direct out, no problem, if he wants to mic my cab, no problem. I'm saying this is an alternative to the anxiety of lugging a lot of semi-fragile connections to get "your tone" and then hope nobody trips on your "I can launch rockets with this" pedalboard. The cliff to me is 4CM itself. : )

That I have a lot less to randomly go wrong with an FC6 to an FM3 is the math of far fewer and sturdier pieces, not opinion.

What is just my opinion is I don't think tube amps sound any better than current firmware if you truly understand how levels work in a digital signal chain, but they do have more real knobs... and knobs are fun and lead to creativity. That's why I still have amps, besides the romantic memories of younger days.
With more than 50 years of playing guitar, I base my opinions on reality and experience, not some imagined "math". While I have not experienced a single failure you describe (apparently @Rumbletone has not either), potential failure is real and possible with gear of any type. Although it's rare, some folks on this board have experienced failures with their Fractal gear with it working fine one minute and not the next. Of course, Fractal gear, like many other electronics, are assembled with many internal components, including firmware code and complicated algorithms. I'm not sure how your math formula accounts for all of that.

Regardless, it's simply your opinion that some random calculation of the number of "pieces" and "semi-fragile connections", combined with some approximations thrown in for beer spills and people tripping, corresponds to the potential for failure. I respect your choice in gear and have no problem with your opinion, but I can't agree that it's somehow mathematical fact because you say so. Peace.
 
Cables came yesterday. If I can get time tonight I’ll try to set it up for tomorrow’s gig.

One thing. The 4CM template looks to be set up as just FX in front and also in the loop of your host amp.
With the helix, I would put my single channel amps in the helix loop, to use as a preamp, switching between it and helix amp models for additional channels.
The FM9 had no “loops” just inputs and outputs.
I’ll attach a pic of the template I’m gonna try to use tonight that I built in anticipation of the cables working when they arrived.
My goal is using FM9 amps as additional channels in conjunction with my amps preamp section.

Thanks for the props Drucifier. I’m just an old guy who has tried a lot of rigs. Lol.
 
You can disable the power amp modeling in the amp block to use the amp block as a preamp. If I'm understanding you correctly, you would put the amp block after the send/return so it's going into your amps power amp in. Then just use the amp on or off in different scenes. I think that might do what you want, but am not at the unit and have never tried something like this.
 
You can disable the power amp modeling in the amp block to use the amp block as a preamp. If I'm understanding you correctly, you would put the amp block after the send/return so it's going into your amps power amp in. Then just use the amp on or off in different scenes. I think that might do what you want, but am not at the unit and have never tried something like this.
No, what I mean is using my tube amps preamp for one scene, than using a fractal amp model for another, all into my amps power section and cabinet.

Like with the Helix, you could put your fav OD pedal in a loop of the helix and have it integrated into any snapshots you wanted, because the Helix had a few external loops. I put my amp in a loop, too.
 
Here’s the fractal template, which shows me nowhere to insert my amps preamp. Compared to what I’m trying create.
 

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Ideally, I’m gonna use it several different ways.
For my main hard rock cover band, I love using different amps whenever the mood strikes me and having the FM9 control everything and effects, etc.would be ideal.
But in my other band, sometimes there’s a fender amp back line …sometimes I can bring my own …and this past weekend, we did a festival and I just brought the FM9 and went direct to a stage monitor.

I agree, there might be a point where I’m just gonna use it for everything instead of dealing with all of the cables. But for now I have to at least give it a shot.

I’ll let you know how it goes tonight if I get around to it before the weekend show.
 
No, what I mean is using my tube amps preamp for one scene, than using a fractal amp model for another, all into my amps power section and cabinet.

Like with the Helix, you could put your fav OD pedal in a loop of the helix and have it integrated into any snapshots you wanted, because the Helix had a few external loops. I put my amp in a loop, too.
the 4CM template is pretty clear. Git into FM9, out 3 into amp input. Amp FX send into FM9 in 3. Out 1 into amp FX return.
 
the 4CM template is pretty clear. Git into FM9, out 3 into amp input. Amp FX send into FM9 in 3. Out 1 into amp FX return.
Right. As an FX only unit. But how do I put an amp block in and bypass my own amps preamp section without another loop?
Maybe I’m not explaining this well.

In the helix I’d do this-

Scene 1 helix fender amp
Scene 2 my amps clean channel
Scene 3 helix 5153 Red
Scene 4 my amps gain channel

All into my amps loop return.
 
in the 2nd preset you mute the Out 3 block and unmute the amp block to use the FM9 internal amp block. scenes can mute/unmute blocks and switch the amp blocks channel. the FM9 cannot switch your external amps channel
 
Right. As an FX only unit. But how do I put an amp block in and bypass my own amps preamp section without another loop?
Maybe I’m not explaining this well.

In the helix I’d do this-

Scene 1 helix fender amp
Scene 2 my amps clean channel
Scene 3 helix 5153 Red
Scene 4 my amps gain channel

All into my amps loop return.

I have presets that are designed for using my amp's preamp and then other presets that are set up using the same 4CM connections running a Fractal preamp into my amp's power amp section. So it's a simple preset change. Would that work for you? Or is it essential that both options exist as scenes in the same preset?
 
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